Author Topic: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"  (Read 17030 times)

Offline redheart

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"A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« on: December 22, 2012, 05:42:11 AM »
  In John Baird's book "Fifteen years in the Hawken Lode" Chapter 15, as I'm sure many of you are aware, John writes Of a very interesting .52 cal.  S. Hawken with an (apparently) original 29" & 9/16" barrel and many other interesting features but, as far as I'm concerned, I was frustrated to not get every finite detail about this piece. Does anyone out there know if anyone ever managed to get more details or better yet photos of this Hawken. I would dearly love to build one!!!

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 12:25:04 PM »
The rifle you refer to is now in the collection of the Museum of the Fur Trade and was on exhibit when I last visited the museum about 18 months ago.  It is also pictured in the book, GREAT GUN MAKERS OF THE EARLY WEST Vol III, by James D. Gordon on page 385. 

Gorgon's book has full colored pictures of 35 Hawken rifles by both J&S and Sam including half-stocks and full-stocks, mountain rifles, target rifles, and small caliber sporting rifles.  The book has pictures of four Hawken pistols and a number of rifles built by individuals associated with the Hawken shop such as W. S. Hawken, and Hoffman & Campbell.  Most of the Hawken rifles are from Gordon's collection, but also from the Museum of the Fur Trade, the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, and several private collections.  I haven't bothered to count them, but many of the rifles pictured in Baird's books are included in Gordon's book.

If you are interested in Hawken rifles as well as trade guns and trade rifles that were common in the fur trade and the West, I highly suggest you get a copy of this three volume set.  It is pricey at $295, but well worth it for the serious student.  You can order it directly from James Gordon or through the Museum of the Fur Trade.  Another option would be to try to get you local library to purchase a set for their collection.

An interesting detail shown in Gordon's book is that the breech plug still exhibits a blue hue from the color case hardening,

I believe one could build a reasonably close replica of this rifle based on the description in Baird's book and pictures in Gordon's book.  You could get by with either shortening one of the straight taper barrels available from several barrel makers or using a straight 1-1/8" barrel, since the 1/16" taper on the 29-9/16" barrel would hardly be noticeable.

The lock, as pictured in Gordon's close-up, resembles the old Cherry Corners lock, especially the hammer, more than the Ron Long designed lock available from R. E. Davis.  The hammer style on the old L&R Hawken lock would work, also.  I don't think the new hammer style on the L&R locks is correct for any Hawken.

Your choice of breech plug is probably limited to the styles of TOTW's #Plug-JB-18-3 or #Plug-JBX-18-3, since it would need to be 1-1/8".

For trigger guard, definitely use TOTW's #TG-Hawk-H-I.  This is the only proper trigger guard for a Sam Hawken rifle.

You may want to make your own two-piece nose cap like the original or modify TOTW's #FC-SH-16-1 for a 1-1/16" barrel and notch the front edge.

TOTW's #BP-Hawk-L-I butt plate most resembles the pictures in Gordon's book, though the original appears to have more curve in the crescent to me.

Other small details such as the fatter oval shaped barrel wedge escutcheons, broad head shaped finial on the toe plate, and short tear drop shaped lock bolt inlay are evident in the pictures in Gordon's book and would be easy to copy.

Good luck with the project.
Phil Meek

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 06:58:11 PM »
Mr. Meek, your advice is superlative!   The only thing I'd change would be the butt plate.  The Bridger plate even though is is a large casting, can be filed to reduce it's apparent bulk and turns out pretty close to the originals.  The other option there is to have Mark Tornichio make one for you - it'll be perfect.
The Davis hammer is too wide, but can be filed to best replicate Hawken's hammers.  L & R's lacks something, though I used there stuff on nearly 200 Hawken rifles when I worked for Robinson Firearms.  I used the Davis hammer on my own personal Hawken rifle, replacing the one Bob Roller had on his lock since it was not long enough for the 1 1/8" bbl. breech.  The tumbler hole matched perfectly for orientation.  What you're looking for is a hammer that just reaches over the fence of the snail and comes down centered on the nipple.  That relationship is super important, not just for aesthetics and HC, but for your safety as well.  The Hawken bros incorporated the very best of English percussion design to get that point right.  And it is consistent on all their rifles.  In choosing a hammer for the Hawken, I found the Davis offering to be the only one that gave me the room to replicate the original design without having to make one from scratch.  It's these details that make the rifle.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2012, 10:59:29 PM »
Thanks, Taylor.  You make some good points, also.

I agree the Bridger Hawken butt plate (shown below) has enough metal that it can be modified to match other shapes.



The butt stock and butt plate on the MFT S Hawken that redheart was asking about is shown below.  To duplicate it exactly would probably require a custom one from someone like Mark Tornichio.



I also agree wholeheartedly with your comments about the alignment of the hammer with the fence of the snail and the nipple.  Here is a picture of the rifle under discussion.  Note that the nipple appears to be a replacement and is holding the hammer too high off the fence and the hammer nose is striking it at the wrong angle.



This is a photo of a totally different Sam Hawken rifle, but one that exhibits the hammer/fence/nipple arrangement you are talking about.



John Baird and Ed Weber used to dedicate a lot of print space to this subject in the old Buckskin Report.

Your statement that, "It's these details that make the rifle" is right on!
Phil Meek

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2012, 11:50:23 PM »
There's a bunch of things to remark on in these two rifles.  Notice the basic wood colour, minus the stains from age and neglect, is basically the same.  And it is not especially dark.  The treatment of the bolster of the lock plate is entirely different.  So either way you make yours is correct.  Both of the locks angle slightly up-hill at the for'd end.
A comment about the top one's hammer...the inside of the cup may or may not be ground or milled so that it strikes the nipple squarely.  Otherwise, the back side of the nipple gets crushed in in quick order.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Herb

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 12:34:51 AM »
This is a tracing of the Jim Bridger Hawken done by Greg Roberts at the Green River Rifle Works in 1975.  He traced the outline on brown butcher paper and wrote in comments and dimensions.  He did not put on the dimensions of the butt plate.  Notice that the BP and toe plate are pinned together

Greg's photo of the cheek side.

And of the end of the butt plate.  You can see the pin at the bottom.

« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:35:24 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 04:46:03 AM »
Taylor, interesting observation about the basic wood color (forgive my spelling) on the two rifles being the same.  I hadn't noticed that when I was preparing the photos for posting.

As I study the pictures of Hawken rifles in Gordon's book and other sources, I am amazed at the slight variations in the locks, hammers, and breech snail and fence.  As varied as they are, we builders are limited in our choices from current commercial sources that resemble the originals.  The Ron Long designed breech plug is the best for the late Sam Hawken period.  The old Griffith Tool Co breech (currently available from The Hawken Shop) can be modified to duplicate the early J&S period, but it is only available for 1" barrel.  The old Art Ressell designed breech and tang was a good bridge between these two, but as far as I know, no one is currently producing it.  The L&R breech and tang is less satisfying to me.  The Gun Works Muzzleloading Emporium offers another version, but I haven't examined theirs in person.

The same can be said about hammers on commercially available locks.  There was more choice available back in the 70's and 80's than there is now.  I suppose that's a reflection of the supply and demand theorem.

Herb, thanks for posting those old photos of the original Jim Bridger Hawken.  Those are really good shots of the butt plate.
Phil Meek

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 06:41:46 AM »
Art Ressell used an original for a master to produce the slant breech
Hawken plug. He also protected himself and the customer by having
them X rayed for flaws. If there were any,the plug was scrapped.
I have an original from the Gemmer estate that Art gave me about 40 years ago
and it could be used today if I wanted to make a rifle around it.
There are also other variants of the "Hawken"locks such as the Wm.Morgan
which was reproduced from an original J&S and the Curt Pearson (Pierson)?
late style from sometime in the early 1960's. I have made a bunch of both styles
over that last 50 years.I still have 5 sets for the Morgan lock,(plates&hammers)
but have had only one actual sale and that was recently.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 06:51:35 AM »
The top picture shows a nipple that looks to me as if it were
cross threaded.The hammer and plate look to be as they were
originally together.

Bob Roller

Offline Herb

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 08:04:57 AM »
Redheart, a few more.  Color photos of the Bridger rifle by my friend, Dave.

The rear sight.  Greg's notes say "front sight all silver", I think.

The nose cap is cast iron.  I got mine from Muzzleloader Builder's Supply.  Track has the correct parts for a Bridger Hawken except the nose cap and entry pipe, for which they list RP-Hawk-E-7-I, but that is wrong.  The correct one is RP-Hawk-TE-7-I.

For the trigger guard, Greg's notes say "Bow is 7/8" wide by 1/8" thick, widest part of scroll is 3/4".  Thus Track's TG-Hawk-L-I is the correct one for a BRIDGER Hawken.  I also like it because it has a smaller bow and when the triggers are fitted as far to the rear as they can go, you have more room for the tang bolt to fit in the thick part of the trigger plate.  The rod pipes are made from rolled sheet iron 1 3/8" long, .615 OD and .520 ID.  The 1/2" ram rod tapers to 7/16" inside the stock.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:41:21 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2012, 09:28:22 AM »
Hey Herb, your comment, "Greg's notes say "front sight all silver", I think." explains the all silver front sights on the GRRW Bridger Commemorative Hawkens.  This is the front sight on Commemorative #9, but #45 and #52 also have all silver front sights.  From what I can tell, the blade is made of coin silver, not sure about the base.  It may be coin silver or German silver.





Keep the pictures of the original Bridger rifle coming if you have more.  The one of the rear sight and of the entry thimble are very helpful.
Phil Meek

Paul Griffith

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2012, 02:57:07 PM »
As far as the odd little tapered barrel. Get ahold of one of the barrel makers across the country. It's what they do.

Paul

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2012, 04:22:24 PM »
This appears to be 99% like the Carson Hawken. I have a
full size color picture of the lock and trigger area of that Carson
rifle and it looks like the same lock,possibly a Gibbons.
I have the plate pattern for this lock if anyone is interested
in a benchcrafted lock for one of these rifles.

Bob Roller

Offline spiderman852

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 01:38:54 AM »
I'm interested in the plate pattern Bob. I also, am in the planning stages of building a Bridger rifle, so any other pic's or info would be appreciated. What about the trigger? Would TOW's hawken dbl set be the right one?

 You guys are AWESOME with sharing all your knowledge with us!

 Thanks Mike

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 03:02:27 AM »
I have no way to post a picture of my Carson plate pattern but it
appears to be the same as the Bridger Hawken shown today on
this forum. I have no idea as to the quality of the double set triggers
TOW has. Mine contain no castings or piano wire springs.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 04:51:24 AM »
Bridger Hawken




















Dan

« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 04:52:36 AM by Dphariss »
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 05:57:20 AM »
Nice photo essay Dan, for those of us who cannot get to the museum.

Thanks.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline redheart

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 06:01:27 AM »
As far as the odd little tapered barrel. Get ahold of one of the barrel makers across the country. It's what they do.

Paul
Thanks for the tip 1Chunker I may do it. First I'm going to try to find out if this was a longer barrel cut off by Sam or if it truly tapers from 1 1/8" to 1" within it's 29 9/16" length.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 08:58:34 AM »
Redheart, I just checked one of my 36" long barrels that taper from 1-1/8" at breech to 1" at muzzle, and at the 30" mark it measures 1.055".  That's pretty close to the 1-1/16" muzzle of the original.  I don't think you have to have a special order barrel.  Just have the barrel maker cut one of their standard 36" x 1-1/8" to 1" taper barrels to the shorter length you want and re-crown it.

As far as determining if it was originally made with the shorter barrel, you could try to contact the Museum of the Fur Trade and ask their opinion.  Baird stated in his book that he thought it was original, but I don't know if he had personally inspected the rifle when he wrote that because he refers to the pictures that Galloway had sent him.  He probably was basing his opinion on the fact that the rifle still has two upper thimbles and the placement of those thimbles.  Gordon's book calls the rifle a "cut down", but on the facing page in his book is another short barreled S Hawken from his collection with only one upper thimble, and it is not called a "cut down".  Gordon's book has a few typos and some pictures mixed up between rifles, so this may be a miss-labeling between the two rifles.  The book, FIREARMS OF THE FUR TRADE by James A. Hanson, cites the subject rifle on page 381 and has pictures of it on page 388, but no mention is made of it being "cut down" in the description, "It has a 30-inch barrel, .52 caliber and weighs 10 pounds".

The rifle has two dove tails near the muzzle that confounds the speculation of its original length.  Baird thought one was original and the other likely an attempt to increase the sight radius.  I doubt that you will get a definitive answer to the question, but it is hard to understand why one would go to the trouble of repositioning the front thimble if it was cut down, and then mistakenly cut an extra dove tail for the front sight.  Of course, stranger things have been done to guns by local smiths.
Phil Meek

Offline redheart

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 09:35:51 AM »
Thanks again Mtn. Meek,

Based on this info I won't go to the expense and trouble of having a custom barrel made.

Now I only need info on         1.The size and style of the front and rear sight.
                                        2. The size, styling and spacing of the ramrod and entry
                                            pipes.
                                        3. Lock bolt escutcheon details and length of forend.

With this info I think by Gawd  I'll have enough to get started.

Thanks to all of you!

Redheart
 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 09:59:20 AM by redheart »

Offline Herb

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 08:37:46 PM »
MtnMeek, I enjoy your postings.  The first photo is of Greg's drawing, and you will see why it is unclear what he wrote.  (On IBM computers, you can hold down CONTROL and hit the plus sign to enlarge the photo.  CNTRL zero to return to normal).

Note "Muzzle not cut square".  This probably means this barrel was also cut shorter.  Barrel length is 32 5/8" bore length and 33 1/8" probably to the rear of the breech plug.  The lock bolt escutcheon is basically Track's Late Hawken.

Total weight 11 1/4 pounds.  Depth of barrel and forend is 2.0" at rear of entry pipe and 2 1/32" at front of lock mortice.  The R.E. Davis Bridger Hawken lock is 4.85" long, Rittel said it was five inches.  Redheart, you can scale this photo out using the 4.85" lock as a known length.  That is how I do it.  For sights- Track has the 1 1/8" Jim Bridger rear sight, that's what I am using.  Front sight-  I'd use a silver blade in a copper base for your rifle.  Length of forend?- scale it out.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 03:44:20 AM by Herb »
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Offline Herb

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Re: "A Hawken Returns to the Mountains"
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 10:15:00 PM »
Redheart- here are photos of the Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade, I took them in August 2010. Note that the caliber is .54.

The lock, breech plug, trigger and guard.

This seems to be the same entry pipe as the Bridger Hawken, that is what I would use.  Is the nose cap two pieces?  It looks flat on front, not rounded down at top.

Does anyone know that this is a 1 1/8" barrel?  The pipes look short, maybe 1 1/4 rather than 1 3/8.  Rounded on the ends.  And is the rod 1/2" or 7/16"?  If I was in doubt, I'd make it 7/16, otherwise you have to fabricate the .500 ID pipes and entry pipe, unless such are available.  You can see the shape of the sights.


The barrel has been cut off, Gordon says so, too.  The stock is disproportionately long.  I scaled out the rifle from Gordon's book, and this is what I got:  barrel is known to be 29 9/16".  But to where?  Inside bore?  End of threaded barrel (front of snail) or end of breech when unhooked? I used front of snail, which in photo measures 8.125".  So 29.56 divided by 8.125 gives 3.63 enlargement factor for photo parts.  End of bbl (EB,ahead of snail) to nose cap (NC) front is 16".  Nose cap to mzl is 13.4".  EB to center rear key is 8.1", front key is 12.7", 4.6" between.  Heel of butt plate to front of NC is 32.4", stock length.  Drop at heel 3.0 or 3.24 (cheek side photo).  Butt plate 4.45.  Length of pull 13.0".  EB to rear sight 8.8".  Sight radius 19.28". EB to center rear pipe is 20.6". To center front pipe 26.0".  Pipe spacing 5.46" on centers.  Mzl to center front pipe is 3.4", center rear pipe 8.8", to entry pjpe (EP) 14.1".  As for the color of the breech plug, I blue my Hawken parts with a propane torch, which is described on another post on this forum.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 07:29:01 PM by Herb »
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