Author Topic: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.  (Read 4025 times)

Offline Rolf

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Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« on: December 22, 2012, 01:31:15 PM »
I've turned a smooth bore caliber 62 pistol barrel blank.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24563.0
I fear I might have made the walls at the breech to thin.
I threaded the barrel blank 3/4” x 16 and made the plug out of 40mm (1.5”) round stock, mild steel. Threaded portion of the plug is 15mm (0.6”) long.

The minimum wall thickness at the threaded portion of the breech is 4.0mm( 0.157") including the threads. Minimum wall thickness right in front of the threads is 4.3mm(0.169").

I've asked several forums what is a normal recommended load for a 62 cal. smooth bore pistol.
The answers have varied from 35 grains FFg to 60 FFg.

I want to proof test this barrel before I use it for anything. Would a singel round ball and 100 grains ffg be an adequate proofing load? What proofing loads would you recommend?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2012, 05:54:44 PM »
Rolf...........If you must proof it, to satisfy your own curiosity, that 100 grain load with one ball should suffice.  I think that
you will find that any load over 35 to 40 grains of powder is going to be uncomfortable...........Don

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2012, 06:40:29 PM »
I have a .60 cal pistol - but it's rifled.  It likes 25 gr. FFFg GOEX and a patched pure lead ball.  I think the MV is around 550 fps.  That sounds pretty lame, doesn't it.  But it's a tack driver.

A proof load is generally a double charge and a single tightly patched ball, if my memory serves.  So load 60 of 3Fg and your .600 ball with a .020" patch, for a proof load.

I have a book I think is called "The English Pistol - a Pictorial Study" and it lists the dimensions of the barrels of most of the pistols.  Your barrel is not out of the question, if you load it historically:  ie - lightly.

If you want a magnum, buy a S & W M 29.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Frank Savage

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2013, 03:36:47 PM »
The answer is a bit... err... not so easy. My country has some @!*% decent gunbuilders history prior to german and comunist occupation and somehow it comes, that there´s an pretty old-times based prescription for proof testing of BP arms still in charge. From times of the ODG. 1 grain is equal to 0,065 gram, or 1 gram is equal to 15,38 grains.

For 58 cal it says as follows:
The barrel must withstand with NO visible or measurable (by micrometer, not digital calippers) change in outer and inner look, as well as in any dimension, a pressure upon firing of 140 Mpa (eq. 20 300 PSI).
Three shots are taken with load as follows:
16,5 grams orf 3F powder, Swiss or equal (so to say, NO powder is recognized "equal" by our Proofhouse due to very fast response of the Swiss upon ignition), or 110-120% of prescribed charge in other mfg of powder, as being recognized. From what I´ve read about used charges, weight of the bullet and MV, the Goex, KIK would be in the 110% range.
31 grams of bullet. (It means some kind of Minie in this cal.)NO path, NO wad (except of thin card wad to prevent moisting the powder), tight fit into the barrel, with rifling fully engraved upon loading.
Three shots are taken, with close examination after each shot.
Then the barrel is considered safe for up to 10 grams of powder with up to 31 grams of bullet weight.
Only if proofing for shot, not for bullet, a lubed felt wad of up to 15 mm height can be used. If proofing for both shot and ball in a smoothbore, the tougher (ball) version of proof is undertaken.

For 69 cal., the proofload consist of 20 grams of powder and 45 grams of bullet; with max. service load of 12 grams of powder under 40 grams of lead.
So a 62 cal. proofload is 17,8 grams (275 grains) of powder and 36 (534 grains) grams of bullet.



Otherways:
What is the "mild steel" in your case? If it´s a kind of Exxx, Sxxx grade of construction steel (eq. to material number 1.0xxx) no way to try to shoot such a caliber with just 4 mm of wall thickness. Some of the 1.1xxx materials (high carbon construction steel) may do that, but probably only after very proper heat treatment. But these steels may even quite well withstand the shoks of the proofload-they are formulated to do so. But 99% of what´s comonly called "mild steel" does not withstand well variable loading (of force) and totaly fails under cyclic loading (of force), if not made with pretty excessive margin. And 4 mm of wall thickness for a 62 cal.-under the proofload, it means about 870-920 MPa of tension induced in the material of the wall. 1,5-2 times the TENSILE strenght of most "mild steels". While you want a tension which is about up to a 0,9 of YIELD strenght of the steel, which shall be about 0,7-0,85 of the tensile strenght.
4 mm of wall thickness in SOME mild steel is OK up to about 31 cal.

So double check the material you used (on AISI pages, accordingly to material spec. you got on bying it), this seems to be a pipebomb. If the material is known just to be a "mild steel", scrap it.
Sorry for throwing you back after some extensive labor on the barrel, but I went through a lenghty process of realy wanting a ML again (after selling them in harsch times-will never do such idiocy again) and thought about using the steels comonly on hand. I made some calcs, had to study quite a lot about material, about BP chemistry and burn dynamics (not a lot known; in fact, the stechiometry is not clear until nowdays! But it works and limits are known...).
Also did some tests to verify my calcs for DOM tubing. Saved at least my hands probably, because if you want to be relatively safe with mild steel, you must have at least 9 mm of wall under the thread for 45 cal. and about 12,5-14 mm for your 62 cal. depending on yield strenght.
Not because it bursts on first or 10th round, but about after some first tenths of shots, most of mild steels will start to elongate, loosening the grip of the breechplug, creating uneven tensions throughout the thickness and lenght of the barrel. In the end, most pobably loosening the devil through the breechplug threads. Quite probably, it would not spit the breechplug into your face, because the tests showed me that once the pressure is released, the mild construction steels quickly returns about 70% of the deformation back to shape, to leave the room to release the problem, but stil holds and not fail. They are formulated so...
But you certainly will loose both eyes.

Edit:
Some people may think, that our Proofhouse is pretty too "tight" and picky. But-as far as it soaked to me-when a guy walked in with a wish to import the second version of the "famous" Savage ML-10 inline (when it was not "famous" yet)-the version, which had almost nonexistent sealing shoulder on the breechplug due to cost cutting-they kicked him away after partial dissasemble. Stating, that when the gasses get into first few threads of the plug, into the part under the thread which holds the barrel into the reciever, there´s not enought material to withstand announced pressures-not saying about the notch weakeningdue to threads of uneven pitch and depth from both sides of the wall. They vere pretty spot on...
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:49:54 PM by Frank Savage »

Offline Rolf

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2013, 05:32:00 PM »
The answer is a bit... err... not so easy. My country has some @!*% decent gunbuilders history prior to german and comunist occupation and somehow it comes, that there´s an pretty old-times based prescription for proof testing of BP arms still in charge. From times of the ODG. 1 grain is equal to 0,065 gram, or 1 gram is equal to 15,38 grains.


Thank you for your reply. The barrel is made from a blank I bougth from "Blackley & Son" who have been producing quality muzzle loader kits for over 30 years. Their barrels are made from seamless hydraulic tubing and are supplied in all their kits. Barrels of this tubing has been proofed and passed by English proofing houses. Here is a link to the barrels and blanks: http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Barrels.html

I gather the loads you are referring to are for rifles not pistols.
According to your numbers a 58 cal barrel is proofed with 16,5grams = 253.77 grains of powder.
If the barrel passes the testing, it's considered safe for up to 100grams=153,8 grain. That is a hot load for a rifle and way more than the 25-35 grains used in a pistol. The overall impression I get is that your proofing house uses proofing loads that equal two max service loads.

According to this logic, a pistol barrel with a 35grain service load should have a 70 grain proofing load. I plan to start at 25 grains and work my way up to 100 grains.  If there is any damage or changes in outer diameter, I'll stopping testing and scrap the barrel. This is my first attempt at barrel turning and done as an experiment, to see what can be done safteley.

What you write about barrel wall thickness/materials is interesting, but a bit confusing. If I understand you correctly, most black powder barrels from renown American makers are unsafe and should be scraped. I have three swamped rifle barrels made by RICE. He and a lot of other American barrel makers use 12L14 which is a mild leaded steel.

One of the barrels is a caliber 62, rifled jeager barrel(one of the standard barrels he offers). Max wall thickness measured at the threaded portion of the breech is 5.65mm. This is less than half of the wall thickness you say is necessary (12,5-14mm). As far as I know, nobody regards a RICE barrel as unsafe. A minimum wall thicknes of 12.5mm means that any safe 62 caliber barrel would have to be at least  40.745mm(1.62") at the breech. The biggest 62 caliber I could find made by any barrel maker is 1.125" at the breech and made of 12L14.

Best regards
Rolf
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:25:43 PM by Rolf »

Frank Savage

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2013, 08:08:52 PM »
That´s all why I addressed the need to know the real material.

Loads: the loads our proofhouse use (and used as far as known 200 years back) are the same for all BP proofs. In a short barrel, you usualy don´t even get the highest peak of pressure the load can create, due to the fact that the monstrous powder column clears the muzzle before even getting fully ignited. And once it can be ignited, then the barrel must withstand it. The object is, that because with BP there´s almost impossible to reach pressures over about 25 000-28 000 PSI* (depends on grain and moisture content) with any minorly sane load-just due to burn properties of BP, to expose the barrel to the highest pressure it might be exposed to during use. Doublecharging, doubleballing can be easy-shooters are dividen just into two groups: those who did and those who will. So the integrity of the barrel must not get any damage or stress, which might compromise the safety and, if possible, also any other aspect of the gun. So triple charging, double or triple balling (in weight, not actual pieces of lead) is a good way to go to be sure.
It can be applied for a reduced load proof- which must be therefore visibly specified on the barrel. But even historically, as to my knowledge-a low use, low quality smokepole were tested for 2,5-3 charges, double balling, serious guns triple charge, triple balling. The too frequently cited doublecharge, doubleballing being absolute minimum, or for a gun which is otherwise brought onto edge of limits of the recognized best quality material and manufacture. (Like these shotguns, which have the barrel contour derived from the pressure curve for max load, being just a tad oversized, with 0,9 mm of steel in the choke for 12x3" ga @ 34" barrels-nothing personal, but just due to material it´s not equal case here. Also, if I understand, you want to try your first barrel-and pushing the limits on your first-I think we understand each other here).


*Counts only for 3F and coarser. 4F and other very fine grains are other beast, in which there´s realy not known the mechanism and chemism they burn, esp. under high pressures-which is definitely somehow different from the burn processes of coarser grain. But it´s recognized that it can do (sometimes, but not known why) worse pressure peak and damage than a lot of smokeless kinds.



As to material:
that´s right the problem that the strenght of what I have seen comonly called "mild steel", varied from 320 to 840 MPa of tensile strenght and 53-85% of that for yield strenght, with very great differences regarding shock load properties. While 90+% of the materials are way under 480 MPa tensile strenght. The 12L14 is a low carbon, low sulphur, low lead automation steel, which has min. tensile strenght of 540 MPa and min. yield strenght of 415 MPa. And has the capability to stand some shocks just up to yield tension with no to minimal change in structure or measuremnts of the part. 8.8 class nuts up to M12 (M14 maybe also) can be made from this steel, if I recall correctly.
The Jaeger barrel you describe-I suppose the 5,65 mm is wall thickness just at the breech shoulder and accordingly I fed the calc for it. So-if the plug is installed with enought pre-tension, that it would not set-back momentarily upon firing, thus not letting the gasses into the thread (so is properly seated), then using our proofhouse load is just about right on spot to create the yield strenght equal tension, just a tad under the point where permanent deformation occurs. So, if the barrel is OK, then it´s OK throughout all 3 proof rounds (due to the steel properties), and so it will withstand the service loads. But if something is minorly wrong, it would fail the proof.
So your Jaeger barrel is spot on to pass the abovementioned tests with flying colors.

The statement about 12-14 mm for 62 cal. counted for safety for 1000´s of rounds with even such steels as 1000 or 1005, steels used for deep draw etc. A kind of grabing some piece of metal on the drawn-can factory scrapyard (absurd for sane person, I know).
Of course, if you need just one or five shots of just the quality of having the desired MV, you can use water pipes and soutable load-it will hold these few rounds, albeit being stressed on lmost 100% of the limit. But no consistency, no longevity...



DOM hydraulic tubing is anything, but as to my knowledge (maybe just still a language incapacity) DEFINITELY not a "mild steel". They are of carbon or low-alloy steels, with tensile strenght between (900)1050-1430(1570) MPa, with yield strenght 82-88% of TS-as I derived from different manufacturer´s specification for different diam.´s and wall thicknesses. It´s @!*% well equal to 4130 heat treated CrMo barrel steel, even higher in some cases.

BUT:
-part of the strenght is obtained from the mfg process-rolling and drawing
-stability of the material, as well as of the dimensions, is maintnaited by ballance of the stresses involved and induced into the material during the mfg process, which are only in some cases partially released by heat treatment
So-if you cut off some layers of the material during turning the barrel, it may seriously compromise the strenght of the tubing. Totaly impossible to calculate how much.

If the barrel is made from stock for making hydraulic cylinders, you have good chance that you´re OK, because it´s usualy heat treated in such a manner to allow welding and turning without warpages, as well as not making fruther heat treating mandatory. TS seems to be in (750)850-1300 MPa range, YS in 73-90% of TS. This stock is usualy supplied in a form of thick-walled hydraulic DOM tubing, so for uninformed people it´s the same.

Conclusion:
IF the blank you turned is from DOM tubing, scrap it or proof it for tripled service charge (about 3x 50 grains), 2 balls. And watch with micrometer for any 0,0001 inch of difference in dia, esp. around the breech face. I would advice look for elongation too. If OK, engrave the max. service load on it, just to be sure it won´t kill someone when it´s not in your hands. It´s not PC/HC, but the material is realy deeply different from anything a man would expect in a tapered barrel.

If the blank is from the hydraulic cylinder stock, I would proof it for triple charge (3x60 grs), triple ball. In the worst case (lowest TS and lowest YS/TS ratio, you´re with the YS somewhere in the ballpark ot TS of 12L14, so the 4 mm may do the job well. From my point of view, the biggest problem you´re facing is perfection of the breeching job-clean run-out of the thread, square shoulder with no excessive cut into the wall, proper close thread tolerance, proper pre-tension of the breechplug face to the shoulder. There´s no big margin, so it can kill the barrel.

I hope I didn´t forgot something...
Also I think I should add some disclaimer about the fact, that although I stand behind my calcs, the entry data esp. for the tubing and cylinder stock may vary due to mfg and material. Check for the piece of metal in hands is needed.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 08:34:05 PM by Frank Savage »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2013, 07:46:50 PM »
If using actual barrel steel the barrel is generally not the worry, its attached parts, breeches and vent liners etc.
A proof will show that parts will not come adrift.
It will also find gross flaws in the barrel material.
Steels certified to be low in flaws and inclusions are pretty safe. But all gun makers, Savage, Rem etc put proof marks n the barrel at least even though there is no requirement by the Gov't.
Proofing steels that tend to work harden or that come work hardened is a different matter. They may stand proof and then fail in service. Remington found this out with 1140M is thin wall barrels, shotguns.
It cost them.
If the steel has high levels of sulfur, lead or phosphorus to make it machine nicely its not suitable for gun barrels according to steel makers and almost everyone else in the barrel making industry except some who cut rifle ML barrels.
So far they have managed to stay in business.
The strength of modern barrel steels is such that its impossible to blow a modern gun barrel quality steel with BP unless very thing. I know of a B weight 44" 50 caliber Green Mountain (1137) that was shot with powder/ball/powder/ball one day. After checking and some more shooting a slight bulge was found at a dovetail actually there were 2 there one top and bottom about 11" from the breech. I would point out that while I know from testing and mistakes made with firearms made by a company I used to work for that 1137 in a 1" 45 cal (chamber in a 45-70 about .485 at the chamber mouth) will EASILY stand 50000 psi in a laboratory.  Probably much more in destructive testing and loading errors by reloaders.
Still the company changed to 4140/50 a few years back. Its just better steel in all regards for the purpose. HOWEVER, its it more expensive and its difficult to obtain in less than 100 ton lots. So small makers pool orders to the steel mill to get the tonnage up.
So when you here of a barrel bursting in a ML one must ask what was the materiel? Unless very thing walled its simply not going the break with BP even with a short started ball.
I have it on good authority that a 357 Magnum revolver by a major US maker will not burst if fired with a full case of Bullseye and a 158 gr bullet. Very well tested. Look at the wall thickness. The SERVICE load for 357 is 35000. A full case of Bullseye is far greater than this.
If the barrel bursts into fragments or splits with no significant deformation there are two explanations. Smokeless powder was used in a lighter than normal charge and there was a flash over in which the powder was not properly ignited and the powder than converted to a H.E. and shatters the steel by detonating. The other scenario is bad steel, either quality, alloy or both. Sako in recent times had a rash of failures with 416r Stainless or something similar. They recalled the lot after several catastrophic failures and a few serious injuries. These rifles had all passed proof. Steel was brittle and inclusion riddled as well I suspect its "free machining" stainless if similar to 416-416R. Krieger makes SS barrels but has provisos on their use no cold weather use and no reprofiling. Due to the material becoming very brittle in colder temps. Remember that most modern CF rifle cartridges operate at 55000-65000. The PROOF loads are 70000 +-.
What does this have to do with ML barrels? It means that it is impossible to blow up a barrel with BP assuming its made of the PROPER MATERIAL. This is my only reason for posting modern firearms information. So when we hear of someone having a barrel split or break we have to ask ourselves why a steel that has a tensile well above, 2-5 times above the pressure that could be generated, fails. It fails because the material is not suitable for the application.  This is evidenced by the barrel producing fragments when it fails. By breaking with little evidence of deforming. By the split continuing well past the point of high pressure. In brittle steels the break will actually exceed the velocity of the projectile and sometimes the projectile or part of it will be found jammed in one of the cracks.


Loading errors as mentioned above is why its a good idea to proof barrels. I used 180 gr and two balls in a 50 and similar loads in everything else.  I would not proof a 62 pistol barrel with less than 120 gr of fff and 2 balls.
W.W. Greener's "The Gun and its Development" at least the earlier versions, are a good place to look for proof loads, just choose the right table.
Claims that ML barrels do not and have not failed in the past is simply not true. But ML barrel makers are protected by the "handloader" shield. All MLs are handloaded and TC, for example, survived lawsuits involving blown guns using the handloader defense and scientific "proof" that was not properly tested by the victim's attorneys. While the claimed that they instituted an electronic testing program for the barrels, which might be true, everyone assumed that they changed barrel steels. Likely they did both.  I suspect that it was cheaper to use better steel than to pay lawyers.
Then we have the problem that most ML buyers purchase by price and tend to ignore other factors.
As a result there is a limited market for cut rifled, lapped 4150 alloy ML barrels costing twice or more what a screw stock barrel costs that requires no significant finish work if any after being cut.

Dan
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Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Questions regarding proofing a smooth bore pistol barrel.
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 04:26:12 AM »
Guys,

On a historical note: the service charge for the British military service pistol was 3 drams, 82 grains.  This was with coarse musket powder and the charge put into the bore was reduced by the priming, say about down to 65 - 70 grains.  This was in a pistol bore size of about 0.65.  Also the bullet was significantly under bore size, windage, but was often very tightly loaded with some patch/wad/paper to keep the bullet in place as the pistols were carried muzzle down in the horse holsters or with the naval belt hooks.  I don't know the exact proof charge for the military pistols, but some quick internet search should give the answer.

I have shot my pistols many times at this service charge and it does get your attention, for sure.  You must yell yahoo! after the smoke clears.  The load of near 35 grains listed in some of the above replies is reasonable.

Jim