Restoration/Conservation

[Mark Elliott]

This question is for those of you who do a lot of conservation and restoration work.   I am doing more and more conservation and restoration work of varying degrees.    I try to follow AIC principles, but I have found very little practical advise or direction.   What resources can you recommend so that I can make sure I am providing the most professional service possible?

[Mark Elliott]

Should I conclude that no replies means that this topic is the third rail of gun building that no one wants to touch.

[wet willy]

Mark, having limited experience with firearms, but  much experience with clocks and watches, "restoration" being to restore the original functionality. "Conservation" is to stabilize the item ... I suspect you know all that.

I am troubled with the "restoration" part with firearms, if it involves shooting them as this adds to their deterioration, whereas running an old clock does not. Cleaning after shooting ... water ... solvents, etc, all contribute to deterioration. Maybe reconverting a percussion lock back to its original flintlock configuration is appropriate. "Conserving" an old firearm may involve water/soft cloth to minimze rust/grime and not much more other than a wiped-on coat of a reversible agent.

FWIW, I live in the USA upper midwest, leaving wood items (rifle stocks, furniture, etc) in a secured trailer over the -20F winter season gets rid of any critters. This can be the first step towards conservation.

Sadly, there are some who "restore"  firearms to an original condition, then sell them as originals without telling the prospective buyer, and thus inflating the selling price.

[JTR]

Mark,
Although I'm not heavily involved in it, I guess my answer would be; What's the point?
Most guys here seem to have already made up their minds whether they are for or against that type of work, and previous discussions haven't changed anyones minds.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but as wet willy pointed out,
"Sadly, there are some who "restore"  Clocks and Watches , old, and not so old guns, baseball cards, china, silver, cars, coins and paper money, paintings, art, etc, etc to an original condition, then sell them as originals without telling the prospective buyer, and thus inflating the selling price."

On the other hand, if you're buying something for thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars, I'd suggest you have no business buying it if you haven't already taught yourself what to look for in the way of deception or fraud.

John  

[Mark Elliott]

Guys,

I think you missed my point.   I was not trying to start a discussion about the merits of conservation or restoration.   It is something I do.   I was just looking for resources to help me to do it better.   Actually,   I really wasn't aware of previous discussions about this although I have gotten the feeling that it is contentious area.  I was away a long time and apparently, I have missed some stuff.

When I say restoration,  I certainly don't mean to make an antique shootable.   I do have customers who want locks and triggers to work, so I do make repairs that won't destroy a good part or the patina on said part.   Mostly,  this is a matter of removing dirt and corrosion and replacing broken or missing parts.   I also repair and stabilize broken and cracked stocks that wouldn't survive much longer in their current condition.   I guess that is more conservation.    My inclination is to leave things alone if the gun is in original in service condition and stable.    However,  usually,  I am brought things that are not in stable condition and would deteriorate further if nothing was done.   

I make up my own mind about what I think is proper to do,   I was more concerned with actual "how to" as in generally acceptable reversible techniques for various repairs.   What materials and supplies are used?  What glues and adhesive removers?  What finishes and finish removers?  What kind of testing of finishes do you do? Do you wear gloves when you handle and work on these guns so as to not affect the patina?  What documentation do you do?  Do you usually provide a report with a conserved or restored firearm?  If so,  what is the format.   It is those kink of things that I am interested in.

 

[JTR]

Okay, my mistake! You didn't miss much in the discussion anyway.
John

[Majorjoel]

 Mark, I highly recommend reading the book "Gunsmithing Tips & Projects" by Wolfe. There are a couple of articles written by John Bivens on just this subject matter. Bivins also gives a great narrative with pictures of his restoration of a fine longrifle by John Eagle. I have tried in the past to excavate ideals within the knowledgeable members regarding restoration and have been totally politely ignored. It is TABOO. Or better put....Sacred Ground

[PPatch]

Hello Mark;

This is a good subject, too bad there is such secrecy (and I have often wondered how much sculldugalry, the general antique and art fields are chock full of it so why wouldn't firearms be). Why not try and contact arms museum conservator's? It would be a stepping off point and you may meet a useful contact or two who are highly trained in the field. I found these links off the Smithsonian website:

http://www.si.edu/mci/english/learn_more/taking_care/armament.html

dave

ADD: btw, the Chickamauga battlefield museum houses an extensive (to say the least) collection of CW arms. They have at least one of everything from that era. Someone has to take care of that collection.

 

[Dave B]

Mark I had purchased my first original Kentucky rifle only because it was affordable. It was affordable only because it was in pieces. I have moved up a little in what I can afford but it is still in the major scratch and dent classification.  If you Don't have the Book Gunsmith tips and Projects book you need to get it. the John Bivens articles alone are worth the price. He has a part one & Part two  articles on the subject.

[JTR]

Well I hate to say it, but from what little I know, there are no secrets. No eye of knute mixed with gopher fur, and brushed on with a feather of eel, to make a wood repair joint vanish. Instead, if you don't want to see the joint, the two pieces have to fit together perfectly so you don't see the glue line. If the glue leaves a line, you'll see the joint. Simple concept, and it just takes lots and lots of fitting.

For glue, sometimes I use Tightbond, various two part epoxies, and sometime high quality super glue made for wood that I get at the local wood workers store. The choice sort of depends on the size of wood being glued, and what sort of load it will have.

For color, I use Laurel Mountain Forge stains, Transtint dye, Drop Black, and sometimes asphaltum. For the finish, I like using Classic Gunstock Finish, sometimes with a bit of turpentine in it, and sometimes with some of the previously mentioned colors in it, to try to match the existing finish on the gun.

For metal color and finish, I use the same stuff everyone here does.  

For light, I use Daylight color fluorescent bulbs overhead, a 500W halogen when I want a lot of light, and a small spotlight for raking light.

Keep in mind I'm just an amature at this sort of stuff, but the biggest secret in learning to make a perfect seam or joint or color match or texture is lot's of practice.

John

[Mark Elliott]

No eye of knute mixed with gopher fur, and brushed on with a feather of eel, to make a wood repair joint vanish.

   Darn!..... What am I going to do with that jar of eye of knute?   

[JTR]

No eye of knute mixed with gopher fur, and brushed on with a feather of eel, to make a wood repair joint vanish.

   Darn!..... What am I going to do with that jar of eye of knute?   

Hey, can I borrow some of that! 

[Acer Saccharum]

I think this subject elicits a similar response as asking of Allen Martin or Eric Kettenburg 'how do you guys finish your guns?'

This is kind of a trade secret mystery business.

Anyway, I have undertaken to pick the brains of a couple  of local quality furniture restorers. They know how to make new wood appear old, finishes, surfaces, all the little nuances that make a piece look 'right'. They don't see me as a competitor, and are happy to share their info.

[Jim Kibler]

In my view the "How to" is just one aspect of this subject.  Perhaps more important are questions like these:

Are you capable of doing the work well?
What is the correct ballance between preserving original material and making a quality repair?
What is a "quality" repair.  should it not be detectable?  Should it be identifiable?
What drives the desire to make a gun look as though it has not been restored?
Is this beneficial?
What is the balance between a solid repair and using less permanent methods?
Are post manufacture additions or repairs worthy or saving?  Where is the line drawn?
Are the choices and decisions made as to original design or intent correct?
Will this work stand the test of time?


There are many other questions as well.  I'm sure there are good aspects of all the restoration done over the years, but there has also been a lot of damage done as well.  I've seen some that people were proud of that was lacking in my eyes.  A touchy and debatable subject for sure.

[Gaeckle]

No eye of knute mixed with gopher fur, and brushed on with a feather of eel, to make a wood repair joint vanish.

   Darn!..... What am I going to do with that jar of eye of knute?   

What a rotter!!! All those blind newts........

[pake]

No eye of knute mixed with gopher fur, and brushed on with a feather of eel, to make a wood repair joint vanish.

   Darn!..... What am I going to do with that jar of eye of knute?  

What a rotter!!! All those blind newts........

...in my mind this is getting funnier all the time! I understand that JTR probably meant "eye of newt", then mark's response of a jar of "eyes of Knute", and Gaeckle's "all those blind newts". Up here in Northern Minnesota there are a whole bunch of Scandanavian Knutes. Used to be a pretty common name. Some of em couldn't plow or shoot very straight. Now I understand why!  

pake

[pathfinder]

I think this subject elicits a similar response as asking of Allen Martin or Eric Kettenburg 'how do you guys finish your guns?'

This is kind of a trade secret mystery business.

Anyway, I have undertaken to pick the brains of a couple  of local quality furniture restorers. They know how to make new wood appear old, finishes, surfaces, all the little nuances that make a piece look 'right'. They don't see me as a competitor, and are happy to share their info.

When I had my business,I recived a lot of request's for advice. 99% of the time I was OK with sharing. I even opened on Sunday's so hobbiest could come in and learn a thing or two. But, I was runnng a business and had 18 mouths to feed and their families,so I may have been a little "curt" to some folk's.

There really isn't any "Magic" formula for restoration work outside of,"Do no harm"! Rule of thumb I learned from the conservators at both Greenfeild Village and the Smithsonian,you can ADD to an item,you can not take away. Use natural products that are as close to what was used "then". Hide glues,oil varnishes,ect.....

[Jim Kibler]

I think it's safe to say that most all restoration, particularly any that is very extensive, fails the criterea presented by Pathfinder.  I'm not saying what is right or wrong, but rather sugesting that most all restoration on the firearms in question is done to another standard.

[Feltwad]

Restoration comes in three different types of condition  very poor, fair, and good. The very poor are those that are in a very rusty condition which most people butcher for parts , these can be brought back with some effort they are our heritage and we hold them in trust for future generations.,
Second are those that are in a fair condition ,these only need a clean to remove any grime and dirt.The biggest fault with this type is a lot of restoration is took too far ,you find checkering re-cut old patina stripped and the gun which is at least 150 years old is made too look has though it had just come of the shelf, there is one golden rule with this type which is {IF IN DOUBT LEAVE IT ALONE}
The last is the good this gun  needs very little work if any so just leave it alone. Another big fault where the excuse of restoration is carried out  is putting a gun back too flint which had been converted to percussion using the drum and  nipple principle, this destroys the history of the gun and is mostly done for financial gain, it will never look right especially where modern parts are used.
Feltwad
Very poor before restoration


After restoration

[Jim Kibler]

First I probably need to apalogize ahead of time for being so argumentative.  I'm probably in a little bit of a foul mood and it will likely show.  Some posts on this topic only tend to reinforce what I see as issues with this subject.  Can a gun be categorized neatly?  Of course not.  Are there different standards concerning removal of "dirt and grime", otherwise known as "patina", here in the states versus England and Europe?  No doubt.  Can a lock conversion using newly made parts be completely convincing?  Absolutely.  Is it a good thing to re-convert a lock?  I don't know.  The point of all this is that if you think this subject is straight forward and simple, that you're belief or approach is absolutely right, you might not be the right one to be doing the work.  I've been doing some work on several old guns that I own.  I've had to make many choices along the way.  Do I know they are correct?  Nope.  But I'm not afraid to think about things and ask these questions.  This all aint that simple guys.  Think about it.

[Dphariss]

Conservation is not the same as Restoration in all respects.
Conservation can mean nothing more than not letting the item deteriorate.
Restoration is another matter ADDING parts. This needs to be addressed on a item by item basis.
Converting a nicely converted to percussion rifle back to flint at the whim of the owner is not good policy in my opinion. A sloppy job maybe done in the 1930s? thats something else.
I have a percussion rifle that has been made into a shooter apparently by cutting 4" off the breech and installing a new breech plug filed and welded up and filed again to fit the standing breech of the original patent breech and a vintage drum installed. Was this done in 1875 or 1935 or 65 I could not say. But I have and inclination to put a patent breech back on the barrel. But its not pressing....
The problem is the barrel is stamped with the makers name twice and if I cut the barrel to use the "new" underlug I would lose the rear most stamp. If not I would have to cut ANOTHER underlug dovetail. The rifle has a good bore and shoots well though I have never shot it myself, the drum installation is not that good.
So its in the gun safe....
Rebuilding a fine old rifle that has been misused, butchered etc is a different matter. This can be both conservation and restoration.  This is invariably a good idea.
But again these things are ALL case by case decisions.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

I agree with cranky Jim.

....and there are more wrongs than rights.

[rich pierce]

I'm guessing that the challenge in this topic is that much restoration work paid for by collectors has as one of its goals, improved appearance and increased value.  The standards also change over time.  In the 1970's nobody wanted to see a gun in attic condition on a table at a show.  Every Beck, every Rupp I ever saw was complete and shined up before every show.  Does anyone think all the guns in Kindig's book were found in fine condition?  Would any of us be happy if our reference books were full of guns as found?  If we look deep enough it may be harder to take a firm stand it should always be done this way or that way.

And 20 years from now, or on another continent, a different approach will be in favor.