Author Topic: red finish on lehigh rifles  (Read 10850 times)

Offline RichG

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red finish on lehigh rifles
« on: January 26, 2013, 06:42:55 AM »
looking for ideas on finishing a Lehigh rifle. I've seen rifles that were red red and I've seen some that were reddish with gold undertones. tow and muzzle loaders builders supply both have stains that are supposed to replicate the lehigh red.  Also read an article on jack Brooks web site about Violin red stock finish. any ideas/experience?

LehighBrad

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 04:08:04 PM »
I recently finished (last Sept.) my Lehigh and I achived a very nice reddish golden color to it by simply staining with Laural Mountain Forge nut brown stain and rubbing in many coats of Chambers finishing oil. A lot of people who seen my pictures posted on here commented on how nice of a color tone it turned out to be. Truth be told, I was hoping for a bit more brownish tone to it rather than the mellow reddish tone I got. Still love it though. ;)





« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 12:46:58 PM by Dennis Glazener »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 04:56:30 PM »
I did a 'French Polish', which is also known as a  spirit varnish, excuse me if I mash my terms with my hammer of ignorance.  Ignoring all the black magic, this finish is essentially a shellac finish, colored with Dragon's Blood ( a resin from a tree ).  This is applied with a wool pad and dabs of olive oil. I looked up how to do it on youtube.





« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 12:47:53 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 06:51:32 PM »
 That French polish is incredible. What kind of wood is that? It doesn't look like maple. Is it walnut?

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Rick G.

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 09:41:18 PM »
The Red/brown Danglers stain has a nice red color.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 09:51:07 PM »
Beware, red colors from analine dyes are not very color fast when exposed to sunlight.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 10:02:27 PM »
Horse, that wood is maple.

I've had a piece of wood in t he window, stained with Dragon's blood, and it shows very little fading. It's been in full blasting sun for over 5 yrs. I think aniline colors would have faded severely.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2013, 10:02:39 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 12:00:15 AM »
You can get recipes for violin varnish online.  They are all basically the same with some minor variations in the resins used.   You can also get red and yellow violin varnish already made up from Kremer or just order the resins and make it up yourself.   Everything is mixed with alcohol in a double boiler and strained several times.   It is only good for a few weeks so you should only mix up as much as you need.   For musical instruments, it is recommended that you put on the yellow or amber finish first and then the red.  If you stain with AQ, then that is your amber base.   Then you just put the red varnish over top.   If it is proper for your style of gun.  The varnish is very quick as opposed to oil finishes.   The varnish dries in seconds and you can apply another coat.   Since the whole thing dissolves in alcohol, you can polish the surface with some alcohol on a rag.

Vomitus

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 01:07:38 AM »
Acer, I found a home for that orphan Lehigh. Right beside my Yangese fowler gun!

Offline hortonstn

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2013, 02:54:41 AM »
danglers orange followed with danglers red really brings out the grain
imho paul

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2013, 03:32:14 AM »
Brad,
Color, brightness and glow of that finish is great!

Tom,
Like the color on yours too but what's with the snowman?  ;) ;D
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2013, 06:48:34 AM »
Neihart carved a snowman with two balls, mine has three. Just so it wouldn't be mistaken as a fake......
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 06:49:04 AM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 10:38:53 AM »
Neihart carved a snowman with two balls, mine has three. Just so it wouldn't be mistaken as a fake......

My snowman is bigger than your snowman, eh? LOL  ;D  ;D
Seriously though, looks great Tom.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 03:26:22 PM »
Historically speaking, there were basically two camps of colored finish being used for the Lehigh-area "red" finishes.  I should note that some were deliberately variations on this tone as well, a few being known that are a very rich amber/orange and some an amber/yellow.  Tom covered the french polish above, which addresses the spirit varnish side of things.  Some of these were very intensely colored by super-saturating the varnish with colored resin; this was done through careful heating.  Watch out.  I believe that the two most common tinting agents were probably the dragon's blood resin mentioned above as well as alizarin, although alizarin has proven to fade much more rapidly than dragon's blood resin.   Some of these old finishes, however, will absolutely not dissolve with alcohol or anything short of very strong application of acetone or paint stripper.  These appear to be oil based finishes as they are very tough.  These are based on very finely ground iron oxide pigments - yes, I said the dirty word: pigments - mixed into an oil varnish.  It is possible, not through grinding but through chemical action, to obtain various shades of iron oxide that are so finely "ground" (although there is no real grinding involved) as to be translucent.  These will not muddy your grain right up as a traditional pigmented stain or finish will.  For an example of such chemical action, one need only look at the sediment obtained through the process of making aqua fortis.  This can be used in various ways to obtain colors from a yellow/gold up through a strong rusty red.  I think you can purchase some of these today from a better quality art supply, however they will most likely be ground into a oil that is not particularly suitable for stock finishing (in regard to dry time - purified and slow drying versions of linseed oil or walnut oil, most likely).
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 09:17:44 PM »
Some iron oxides are more transparent than others. Burnt Siena is pretty transparent, which I have used in some oil finish layering of color.
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Offline RichG

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2013, 02:39:14 AM »
so many options, what's one to do? thanks for all the info. I was reading my copy of gunsmiths of grenville co. and Mr. alexander mentions mixing LMF stains with Permalyn sealer. sounds easier than grinding /mixing pigments. Has anyone tried that?

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2013, 02:53:58 AM »
so many options, what's one to do? thanks for all the info. I was reading my copy of gunsmiths of grenville co. and Mr. alexander mentions mixing LMF stains with Permalyn sealer. sounds easier than grinding /mixing pigments. Has anyone tried that?
Colonial red and cherry will give a nice undertone;  but beware you can go toooo red i.e. the Cherry, use it sparingly.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2013, 03:13:10 AM »
The most glaring "mistake" people make when doing a so-called red (or other toned) Lehigh varnish replication is using some type of colorant as a sealer or stain.  Not getting into the authenticity of materials - for the purposes of this discussion, I don't care if you're using a genuine dragon's blood varnish or red aniline in poly.  Regardless of material, one defining characteristic of every red or otherwise varnished Lehigh I have ever seen is that the color is IN THE VARNISH not used as a stain.  The stock is typically sealed or lightly stained w/ aquafortis and sealed, to create a tan to amber undertone and to highlight any figure, and the red colorant is then applied in the varnish.  If you make up a red varnish with permalyn or whatever, and use it as a sealer as well as a varnish, it will never look right because the red dye is penetrating into the wood and dying it a funky color.  I don;t think I;ve ever seen an original piece that looked like that, and (to my eye, so it's opinion) it's not a good look.  It looks modern.  One big advantage to making colored OIL based varnishes (longevity aside) is that you can create a basic ground tone in the stock with various stains, seal it with a "spit coat" or two of shellac or seedlac, and then you can rub out a thin oil varnish very easily without worrying about contamination of the underlying layers.
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Offline RichG

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 10:53:35 PM »
ordered some red aniline dye(oil soluable) and some aquafortis. any ideas on a traditional oil based varnish that would be correct? local supplier has a tung oil varnish, everything else seems to be polyurethanes. Also anyone with experiance using tried and true varnish oil or mixol dye from woodcraft?

Offline bgf

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2013, 01:00:29 AM »


Quote
ordered some red aniline dye(oil soluable) and some aquafortis. any ideas on a traditional oil based varnish that would be correct? local supplier has a tung oil varnish, everything else seems to be polyurethanes. Also anyone with experiance using tried and true varnish oil or mixol dye from woodcraft?
Minwax Antique Oil Finish is decent, but a little thin.  It is just BLO with some serious driers and a lot of thinner.  It can be hard to find (and banned in California, I heard), but ACE usually has it here.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:00:53 AM by bgf »

Offline PPatch

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2013, 01:39:57 AM »
...sounds easier than grinding /mixing pigments. Has anyone tried that?

I have, in an oil painting class researching Renaissance painting methods I ground pigments for making egg tempera paint - lets put it this way - forget it!

It takes forever, talking weeks here, to hand grind pigment to the micron sizes required for mixing artist paint which I would believe is pretty much the size needed in an oil stain too. You CAN achieve great color, often more vibrant than machine ground pigments, but it has to be a labor of love (and sweat) combined with a darn good dust mask and rubber gloves to keep from being poisoned by the pigments.

dave
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:42:13 AM by PPatch »
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2013, 02:12:33 AM »
Acer. That french polish is BEautiful. What might you suggest to blacken it up a bit to get it looking older
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Offline aaronc

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2013, 03:51:45 AM »
well I too like the occassional "red" look and have looked over this thread and a couple of others,...........and also youtube. I'm not a wood finisher so it's a bit confusing and the youtube vids are all realted to guitars/violins (at least that I found). - Not sure if it makes a difference.      If there is a tutorial anywhere I would appreciate the link. I looked in tutorials here but didn't see any (could have missed it)

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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: red finish on lehigh rifles
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2013, 06:01:38 PM »
Acer. That french polish is BEautiful. What might you suggest to blacken it up a bit to get it looking older

Some folks spray their guns with Rustoleum, then rub it back.  ;D

I'm not sure how to blacken it. I've since put boiled linseed on top, and I suspect one could put color in the top coats. Artful finishing takes skill, just inletting, carving and engraving do.
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