Author Topic: trade rifle barrel  (Read 5878 times)

Offline RichG

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trade rifle barrel
« on: February 07, 2013, 11:11:23 PM »
looking to  build another trade rifle. I built an approximate copy of a J Henry scroll guard with TOW parts and a green mtn 1" str. 58 cal barrel. It turned out to be 10 1/4lbs with 39" barrel. I have hansons trade rifle sketch book and most of the rifles listed have large dia. straight or tapered barrels. I've never seen a henry or tryon etc. up close. Did they ever use swamped barrels? are any of the currently available swamped barrels close or do I just use whats close and not worry about it?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2013, 11:43:51 PM »
I think it would depend on the timeframe.  There might be a slight swamp on the earliest rifles in that book.  The early Lancaster pattern rifles English trade rifles with sliding wooden patchboxes had swamped barrels, and I think the earliest English daisy patchbox rifles did as well.  Anything after 1820 would likely exhibit little to no flare at the muzzle but some taper.
Andover, Vermont

Offline gunmaker

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 11:46:12 PM »
the Rifle Shop has correct bbl. for Henrys, I believe they were swamped.  If so any other one would work.   Anyone else know ???.........Tom

Offline RichG

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2013, 08:18:52 PM »
anyone know how to get a reply from the rifle shop? I've tried to get a catalog to no avail ???

firelock-inc

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2013, 08:40:58 PM »
I own a Tryon Rifle, the weight is just under eleven pounds.
Barrel length is 42 inches; .50 caliber. It is flint lock with a
5 inch lock plate.  Every indication is that it a contract rifle
for the 1837 indian removal.

Please note that barrel is straight and not swamped.

Rickp 

mattdog

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 05:35:03 PM »
I have a Ron Paul copy of the Kit Carson J. Henry English pattrn trade rifle.  I went to Taos NM. to check it against the original which is dispalayed in the Kit Carson Home and Museum.  The original and my copy (meticulously copied) both have swamped barrels and in my opinion woul be near impossible to shoot offhand if the barrel was straight.  As it is, it weighs just shy of ten pounds with its 42", .54 cal. barrel. 

Ron Paul submitted the pattern to Colerain Barrels who produced a limited quantity of them.  I don't know if they would rerun one or more for you but it is worth the call. 

JoeG

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2013, 05:18:24 AM »
I have the specs  taken off the j. Henry scroll guard  and lancaster pattern in the Museum of the fur trade

I will dig them out and post the barrel specs for you

Offline Duane Harshaw

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2013, 05:43:44 AM »
I think it is Getz that makes a Heritage barrel
Coaldale Alberta Canada

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2013, 11:29:59 PM »
There is a heavy J.Henry half stock perscussion rifle in the Huntington (WV)Museum of Art.
I made a sorta/kinda representation of it back in 1959 with a 34"x1-1/8" Bill Large barrel.
 Bob Roller

JoeG

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 03:49:16 AM »
These barrel measurements are from a set of  drawings  done by J.Corley  Frosyth MT
in 1988 at Museum of the fur trade

I got a  copy of the drawingfrom George Jackson who got them from Ron Paul

Lancaster trade rifle barrel
.54 cal
44 inches long
breech  1 1/16”
12inch from breech 1”
22 inch from breech 15/16”
13 in from muzzle .900
38.5 from breech  .900 ( 29/32”)
muzzle                  .940  (15/16”)


Scroll Guard
.54 cal
41.5 inches long
Breech  1.050
12 in from breech  .920
22.5” from breech   .880
12” from muzzle     .880
4 “ from muzzle      .920
muzzle                     .940


both barrels are marked J. Henry
on top flat vertical letters

I hope this helps
 

Offline RichG

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 05:41:36 AM »
thanks for the info everyone. It looks like the currently available swamped barrels have more swamp to them than the Henry's used. I'll contact rice and getz and see what's available.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 03:06:40 PM »
Regarding weight of the finished trade rifles, they were not light rifles - here is some pertinent info:

1) brass mounted Lancasters:
 In October of 1825 William B. Astor wrote Henry, "on the subject of Rifles. We continue to import a part of those annually required for our trade; but we usually get 100 or 200 manufactured in the United States, and it will depend much on both price and quality whether we do not in future procure the whole quantity in this country. The barrels of our Rifles are, from 3 ft 8 Inches, to 3 ft 10, and the calibre is in part of them 32 [to the pound] while others carry a ball of 40 to the pound - the Locks are of the best strong roller kind; but not water, proof - The stocks are generally of our native Maple, or Sugar-tree, but we may wish part of them of Black Walnut. The mounting including the PatchBox, is of Brass and well ornamented; and each Gun must have Wipers to screw-on to the thimblerods, and a good Ball mould. The whole weight of the Rifle complete, is from 9 to 10 lbs. . . ."
2) Kit Carson's early brass mounted B. D Gill trade rifle (which is in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection) weighs a whopping 12 pounds

Steel mounted Henrys (these orders even require a minimum weight of 10 lbs):
1) Sept 1831 Henry received an order for "10 rifles, sing. trig. bar[rels] 3 ft. 4 inches. Cal. 32 [to the pound]. 5 inch locks, best quality, maple stock, chequered, steel mt. with covers, weight of the gun when completed not less than 10# [lbs)nor more than 11."
3) another order to Henry, given in September of 1833, also called for steel mountings: "20 Rifles, Single trickers, Steel mounted same as last year, Balls 28 per lb and [browned] barrels 3 f 2 in long, The whole rifle not to weigh less than 10 lb. nor more than 11 lb."

The weight differential of the early (1825) Henry's to the later (post 1830) models, is most likely due to the weight of the barrel - early production guns more often used swamped barrels, while the later production guns may have used straight or tapered barrels. more often, which by the latter period were more common and more cost effective. BTW - the measurements given above for the two Henrys are from guns both dated 1834 and later - that's the year the scroll guard first appeared and the Lancaster is dated by the Museum as 1836.

as to swamped barrels on post 1820 western fur trade rifles, both trade and Hawken- most of the trade rifles by Henry, Deringer, et al in Jim Gordon's Museum are swamped albeit many are not as much as what most  of the modern production guns barrels are. Also there are several still extant Hawken rifles with swamped barrels from the 1830-40 period, including half-stocks and the full-stock in the School of the Ozarks which was built in the early 1850's.
Based on measurements from several 1820-1830's era trade rifles I've seen, plus about a half-dozen of the Hawkens with swamped barrels there are two current commercial regular run barrels that fit close if not exact to many of these measurements, and IMO would work unless building an exacting replica of a particular original - then it would be custom time - standard twist rate on most barrels of the 1820-1840 era trade rifles is also 1:48" if that is a concern.
1) In 50 caliber only is the Rice Southern Classic
2) In 50, 54, or 58 - the 42" Golden Age/York profile which is made by several builders including Rice, Colerain, et al - this barrel could also be judiciously draw filed at the muzzle to lessen the swamp slightly, but that would entail a custom or hand done inlet of the barrel. Without any change though the difference between the swamp and the muzzle flare is only .063", just over 1/16" which is well within the parameters of many of the swamped barrels on 1820-1830 era trade rifles.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 03:21:18 PM by Chuck Burrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline RichG

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Re: trade rifle barrel
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »
Mr. Burrows; great info. looks like a "D" weight barrel with the breech filed to 1.062 would be a near perfect match. And a "C" weight inlet could easily be opened up.