Maple for English big bore flintlock?

[Naphtali]

Is maple appropriate wood to use for a Manton-style English half-stock big bore flintlock rifle?

Would dark staining maple to render exterior closer to walnut's basis color be appropriate? Is such a staining feasible?

What is minimum length of such a Manton-style English big bore flintlock rifle stock when barrel is 29-30 inches? When barrel is 33-34 inches?

[T*O*F]

No, English walnut is appropriate.  Dense black walnut will also work.  The board that Dennis has for sale might work if it's dense enough.

No, it will always look wrong and most will have hidden curl that appears after staining.

Forestock length remains the same regardless of barrel length.  Only length of pull varies

[Feltwad]

You will find that both John and more so Joseph Manton used birds eye maple on some sxs  and s/b sporting guns and rifles .I have restored over the years many sporting guns by these two makers with stocks of birds eye maple.The most common wood was French or English walnut.
Feltwad

[Jim Kibler]

Well, I recall seeing a few, high quality late flint period shotguns stocked in maple. Seems I've seen birdseye and curly maple.  Can't recall seeing any sporting rifles stocked as such, but if used for the ocassional shotgun, I don't think it would necessarily be out of place on a rifle.  Not exactly sure of the period you are working in though.  With this said, English Walnut is far more common.  The use of maple should be considered a rarity.  Reference "Three Centuries of Tradition" page 130 for a flint double shoutgun by William Smith, c. 1822, stocked in highly figured curly maple.  

[SuperCracker]

Didn't the Mantons buy one or more large tracts of land in NA specifically for cutting stockwood (maple) from?

[Chris Treichel]

Maples species Acer grow all over the northern hemisphere including England and mainland Europe... The first recorded use of the word Mapul is in Chausers Canterbury Tales. Folks mainland Europe also used maple for carpentry and fire arms.

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm47.pl?t=temsearch_2_D&db=kat47_2.txt&f=*NR_LOT%2C*TITEL_D%2C*BE_D&start=1&dif=20&c=ahorn

box is 15th century of Ahorn=Maple

Swiss rifle from 1690 is stocked in Ahorn=Maple

Laurel, thorn, maple, beech, yew, dogwood tree, 
Or how they were felled, sha'n't be told by me. 
Nor how the wood-gods scampered up and down, 
Driven from homes that they had called their own,


http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2235.0 Two more maple stocked European guns

Manton stocked in Maple 1826 http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=271753

[rich pierce]

It happened at least a few times.  Is a maple stocked English gun representative of English originals?  No.

[Jim Kibler]

It's certainly representative of SOME English originals! Not the majority, but still some. One thing for sure, Even within the relatively strict British Gunmaking scene, there were still variations in approaches.  Looking at any of this stuff from a blanket statement perspective doesn't seem too productive. With regard to the use of maple during the period in question, I think it's safe to say that it was used with enough frequency to be something other than a wild anamoly.  Certainly happened more than a few times.  Feltwad's post certainly backs this up.

[westbj2]

Seems that the use of maple by the English gun trade could be described as a 'fashion' or a 'fad' during the first two decades of the 19th century.  As Feltwad notes, the Mantons seem to have been in the forefront of its use particularly with regard to birdseye.  I have owned several Manton rifles with birdseye stocks, one of them I recall fondly because of its uniqueness.
It was a 16b single rifle with a barrel marked "T.F." for Thomas Fullerd.  The percussion lock was a conversion from flint. The scroll guard was greatly exaggerated in size as regards the bow size and oddly, it had a distinct pear shaped butt pl ate. At first I thought it may be a re-stock but decided finally that it was original. The rifle by John Manton, clearly illustrates the ability of the gun trade elite to influence fashion.
Interestingly, for a brief period about 1835-40, Purdey made another attempt to influence fashion by using a black lacquer finish on some of his stocks.
Jim Westberg

[rich pierce]

Good info, thanks.

[T*O*F]

It happened at least a few times.  Is a maple stocked English gun representative of English originals?  No.

Exactly, and that is what I based my original answer on.  The question posed was is maple appropriate, not was it ever used, but the answers provided the exceptions rather than the rule.  Personally, I consider them to be the "fantasy" guns of yesteryear.

[Naphtali]

So the term "appropriate" is inappropriate. The term "satisfactory" is a more nearly accurate description of maple Manton big bore flintlocks.

What would be an acceptable minimum length for half-stock wood, regardless of wood type, for 33-34 inch barrel?
*****
Examples shown in links don't look half bad. The blank that caused me to query is blond-ish and I think striped (fiddleback??). Were the stock resulting from it to have - capable of having - the honey color depicted in the linked photographs, I would buy it in a New York minute.

[Jim Kibler]

TOF,

It's okay if you weren't aware of the use of maple.  Please read my previous post.  It is clear that it was used more than a FEW times.  I am aware of more than a FEW examples and I don't really give a $#@* about this period of gun.  If you start studyng this stuff in detail you'll realize almost every gun is the exception, and even in the strict British gunmaking scene there were variations.  Was maple used?  Yes.  Was it the primary wood used.  No.  It was used during a period of time by some of the best builders in a frequency such that it still shows up fairly often.  Again, reference Feltwad's post.  Don't think he's telling lies.  So to the original question "is maple appropriate wood to use for a Manton style big bore rifle"  How can the answer be anything but yes?  And how can it be termed a fantasy?  

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Another way of looking at it... If I make a "copy" of a Manton or William Smith gun, originally stocked in maple, and use maple with similar characteristics for my version, is the use of maple not appropriate?  So what I've done is make a "Manton style" gun, used maple, but it's a fantasy.  Come on   I've said more than enough with this topic.

Jim

[SuperCracker]

I'm lost.

How can using Maple on an English gun relegate it to being a "fantasy gun" when it is clearly established that English gunmakers of the period did in fact occasionally use Maple? By this reasoning all these super fancy, engraved and inlayed long rifles would also be "fantasy guns" because they were'nt how those original builders made the majority of their guns.

And I'm really lost with the idea of "Fantasy guns of yesteryear". So..... in the 19th century John Manton was making guns that were not representative of the guns made by John Manton in the 19th century?  I had to have misunderstood this.

I think we've reached some bizarre threshold of HC/PC paradox where a big chunk of original guns are going to be dismissed because some feature of them is not commonly encountered or known, but their feature is not commonly encountered or known because they are being dismissed, thus do not get discussed




The English gunmakers were making (not exclusively of course) bespoke guns, as specifically ordered by well to do clients. So, considering that the whims of customers can change and vary wildly from person to person, especially considering what can happen when rich people start to try to outdo each other, pretty much anything that was doable in the time period and more or less in keeping with the style of the area, should be within the realm of appropriateness for a made to order English gun.

[rich pierce]

Wow, such excitement over different views or usages of words.  

Though many consider me bull headed, I can defer when presented with new data that refutes or doesn't jibe with the limited info I have.  I think most reading this agree that in general, Euro walnut is a pretty common to predominant wood for English guns of the flintlock and percussion period, that there are/were exceptions, and now we know that in some periods it was faddish to use maple, whereas in other periods it was used more sparingly.  Cool to know new stuff!  I like the burl type stocks myself but wonder if it's possible to plane them.

My previous utterations were a knee jerk reaction to one of my pet peeves, which is the numerous kits out there (from certain suppliers NOT others) for every type of Euro flintlock gun (musket, fusil, fowling piece, trade gun) offered with maple as the primary wood.  Not the first time I've made sweeping, inaccurate statements.     Nor the first time when I've been corrected (even better).

[Dphariss]

This is another one of those where its possible to mean oneself coming from the other direction.
Considering the amount of American hardwoods apparently exported to England it seems obvious that some English guns had to be stocked in American wood and perhaps guns from other parts of Europe as well.
I really like curly maple. I have a Win. SS stocked in it.
But an English gun would not look correct, to me, stocked in Maple.


English style 1/2 stock Flintlock.



American grown European Walnut.
Dan

[rich pierce]

Looks like a great hunting rifle.  Drummond Stewart might have liked that one.

[Naphtali]

I just read Neal and Back's book, The Mantons, and my question was answered. Paraphrasing: Between 1820 and 1840 birdseye maple was in vogue among best-quality gunmakers. While discussion and explanation was not inclusive for larger time frame, this is sufficient for me.

[Dphariss]

W. Greener, in "The Gun" gives directions for staining and finishing maple so obviously they were using some of it.


Dan

[eddillon]

Purdey's made some beautiful maple stocked rifles in the early percussion era.  Without parallel!