Working band saw blade into spring

[holzwurm]

Some time ago I was informed that because commercial band saw blades have a lot of carbon they make excellent spring stock. Yesterday I managed to make a spring out of a piece of blade. And, as these things often go my first spring did work but has a small design flaw and I wanted to make another spring. Today the magic has gone out of the world 

I've tried annealing another piece to get started. Brought it up to cherry red (non magnetic) and then set it aside to air cool. For some reason none of my drills will do more than make a shinny spot. I even  had one piece shatter. There is no annealing going on here to make the  steel workable.

Has anyone has success with this material making springs? I know some use steel banding strap for springs - but this is what I have. Having this hard a time annealing the stock, after making the spring hardening and tempering it is going to be a nightmare.

Comments - - - suggestions.

Thanks

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

When a normal annealing process as holzwurm descibed does not work, the material may be alloyed enough to make it what is known as "air hardening".  This means that heating the material to the transition temperature and allowing to air cool will be a sufficiently fast cooling to harden the steel.  

Try this.  Heat the steel to a bright blue temper color, or a little hotter until the blue disappears to a grey color (about 700F).  Now the material has been stress relieved and can be drilled, cut, filed.  I have found this to work well on the Brown Bess Grice & Tower lock frizzens that are often made from air hardening steel and are nearly impossible to anneal unless you do an extremely slow furnace cool.

Actually you can do some damage to the metal grain structure by annealing, especially if you get it a little too hot or for too long a time.  Stress relieving is very often a safer and easier alternative to a full anneal.  When I make a spring, I try to avoid heating to above the transition temperature until the final hardening heat.

Jim

[eddie]

It could be you have a blade that is inlaid with h.s. steel if so you would have to bring it up to light orange and hold the heat a few more seconds than if were carbon steel. i have a lot of used clock mainsprings that are .017 in thickness3/4 wide you are welcome to one of them if you pay the shipping. also after you bring it to heat either hang it in the air or preheat the object that you lay it on. eddie

[Jim Kibler]

It's not only the alloy content, but the mass of material as well.  Thin material will cool more rapidly than heavy sections and can contribute to hardening.  Also, I would suggest that you can heat to a temperature below the transition point to soften it further.  Generally a very dark color to a dull red in dim light works well.  Another trick I sometimes use if trying to get a full anneal (heating above transformation temperature), is to heat to the desired point and then very slowly move the torch away over a period of several minutes.  This helps insure a sufficiently slow cool.

[Mark Elliott]

A lot of bandsaw and hacksaw blades have a carbon steel back and the teeth are HSS.   They are unsuitable for springs.    Just purchase 1095 for springs.   It is pretty inexpensive and is the best stuff for springs.  The cheapest place I know to get 1095 in small quantities from Admiral Steel http://www.admiralsteel.com/shop/.  

[smylee grouch]

Would cooling the spring in warm wood ashes and alowing to cool untill every thing was cool help any?

[Blacksmoke]

With air hardening steel I always use the ash method to do a very slow cool - it always works as long as the ashes are hot when the part goes in them. Make sure that the part is completely covered with the ash a let sit
for an hour or more in a metal bucket.  Do not leave the part in the stove or have coals in the bucket.
Hugh  Toenjes

[holzwurm]

I don't know where my brain went today but all this talk about low temperature flipped a switch in my brain. I have a small heat treating oven and I can put the pieces in there and hold a 700 degree for as long as I want. I tried the torch method in low light but the colors changed so fast the temp went dark red before I could pull the heat off.

Whenever I've seen band saw blade with hardened teeth the band of black teeth was very apparent. The blade I have is one color right out to the teeth.

[TMerkley]

This reply is not meant to insult. 

Check the angle of the cutting edge on your drill bits.  The cutting edge may be worn just enough to keep it from cutting. 
If you have good eyes and hand coordination, you can grind your bits your self,  It may not be the 60 degree angle, but sometimes a steeper angle will pull your drill right in.  Practice on an old broken bit and give it a try.  I have had good luck with this. Also use oil when drilling that stuff.  It will go, just stay with it. 

[Bob Roller]

An unannealed bandsaw blade is pretty hard. To drill such a piece,
clamp it to a block of wood and turn the drill slowly and with a lot of pressure
on it. A slightly flatter grind with minimum clearence works best for me.

Bob Roller

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Just another, and more general, reply to this.  In the past I have used a variety of metals to make springs, old automoblie leaf springs, old files, etc.  Sometimes this worked very well, sometimes I wasted a lot of effort only to have a broken spring as the result.  This issue was that I did not know the actual alloy and carbon content of the metal, so my heat treating was based on my best guess.  Sometimes I won and sometimes I lost.

Now, I have given up on this and use only certified 1095 steel, see the posting by Mark Elliot.  Now when I make springs from metal that I know is 1095 I heat to 1500F, quench in brine, temper to 810F, and I have high confidence that I have a well tempered spring.

My advice, give up on the band saw blades!

Jim

[Don Getz]

I was mulling over your request about a spring.   Where exactly do you need this spring?   If it one for a patchbox release
why are you heat treating it?  Just cut it out with a tin snips and install it.   Same thing for a pop open spring for the lid.................Don

[mattdog]

J.W.E.  That is by far the best advice.  !!

After trying many different types of steel lying around, band saw blades, spring clips, banding iron, you name it, I finally broke down and spent $10 or $12 bucks on real 1095 in different thicknesses and now have confidence that when I make a spring it will work as needed and not either break or "take a dive".  It is very dissapoiinting to spend the time making a spring and get it just right then have it break.

I bought mine from Ryan at Muzzleloader's Builder Supply.  Three pieces in three different dimensions is enough to go about making springs for a lifetime.  Since I now know exactly what the steel is I know exactly how to anneal it, harden it, temper it. 

[P.W.Berkuta]

It's not only the alloy content, but the mass of material as well.  Thin material will cool more rapidly than heavy sections and can contribute to hardening.  Also, I would suggest that you can heat to a temperature below the transition point to soften it further.  Generally a very dark color to a dull red in dim light works well.  Another trick I sometimes use if trying to get a full anneal (heating above transformation temperature), is to heat to the desired point and then very slowly move the torch away over a period of several minutes.  This helps insure a sufficiently slow cool.

Mr Kimber is a wise man and one should heed his advise -- don't waste your valuable time "@$#%&*@" with different types of unknown "spring steel" -- I purchased my spring stock from Admiral Steel (1095 & 1084) and from DWG (1075 in 1978 - still have some left)). I use 1095 & 1084 for some knives and it makes good springs also - just don't get the "as rolled" stock - it has not been normalized and it is TOUGH  .

[bgf]

Resistance is futile.  You will order 1095, or better yet order a premade spring set, preferably custom-crafted by a professional.  Too many minutes are wasted finding a scrap and turning it into a spring.  Too many lives are at risk if a patchbox spring fails.  The world's critical dependence on fully furnished flintlocks is too important to take chances.  What choice do you have?  If only this were a hobby where you could enjoy @$#%&*@ around with stuff!

[JBlk]

Blacksmoke has the right idea.Your metal is cooling to quickly and thus not annealing.You can cut several pieces of the material and heat them to different colors to find the best heat for your annealing heat.Stick the pieces deep in the ashes so they don't get the air.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This story is not about spring stock but I think the message is the same.  I had a blank tumbler that needed to be drilled and tapped for the hammer screw.  It was 'as received' or 'as cast', so I assumed it was annealed.  It was not.  I put it into the chuck on my lathe and tried to drill it.  After ruining several drills thinking I only had a dull one, I decided the steel was hard.
So I heated the tumbler to non-magnetic red, let it cool slowly in air, and tried to drill again.  No go.  I re-heated, put it into hot sand, and let it cool.  No go.  Then I repeated the anneal but this time with hot ashes - frustrating to say the least.  Still like glass.
  I phoned two different gunbuilders, whose advice I trust, Tom Curran and Cody Tetachuck, and they both told me the same thing.  Build a small hardwood fire, place the tumbler in the coals and let it burn out.  I went one better - I took my portable oxy/acet torch out to the back yard, heated the tumbler to nice red again, and THEN put it into the good coals.  Three hours later, all that remained of the fire was ash, and I fished out the tumbler and took it to the lathe again.  It cut like mild steel! 
Perhaps the same can be done with your bandsaw steel stock.

[Mark Elliott]

Since this has evolved into an annealing thread.  I have two methods that work.   First, I heat the part in my forge to well above recrystalization temperature, usually a bright salmon color,  then I thrust it deep in a popcorn tin full of Pearlite.   You need to get it in the Pearlite before it drops below recrystalization temperature,  usually a bright red.   Another foolproof method, if you have a heat treat oven is to take the part to just past recrystalization temp and turn off the oven to let it cool very slowly.   By the way,  you can get the Pearlite at the garden center in small bags.   It is an insulating mineral akin to Vermiculite, only non-radioactive, hopefully.

[Bob Roller]

 "@$#%&*@"is the last untaxed luxury of the working man and has no application to spring making.
  Going on to various locks for Hawken rifles,I'd say I have made a bunch of them and the four
  styles I make even to this time are the Tom Gibbons,Bridger,Carson and one marked J&S Hawken
  that was once offered as a kit with internal parts.I still have a few (5)plates and hammers for this one.
I have plate patterns for the Modena (Meier)which is a small lock and another for the Parkman Hoffman&Campbell
built in 1846 or '47.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Sounds like a case of the foundry strikes again. About 50 years ago,
anything remotely resembling quality control was non existent and glass
hard parts were to be contended with.Almost all lock plates were warped
because of using an air hose to eject the wax from the mould and when
such a plate was striaghtened,it became a two or three piece plate.
Frizzens were a hopeless case and some couldn't be drilled with a carbide
drill bit.I was told that the quality control I wanted would bankrupt a government
and my answer was that it should be the normal thing in every day work.Now all
of you know why I won't have anything to do with cast internal lock parts no matter
how good they might look.

Bob Roller

[mattdog]

Sorry BGF, didn't mean to ruin your fun.  I just see it from a different perspective.  I make my living at my bench and sometimes @$#%&*@ around isn't an option.  That is why I reccomended buying the correct - or at least a known - material for making springs. 

I have seriously farted around making springs for obsolete or obscure locks without the old spring to use for a pattern.  It goes like this:  First off I don't expect the first try to work.  You make the first one to figure out what needs to be don to make the second attempt work.  So after a few hours of @$#%&*@ around you get it "right" only to have it crack when installed because you used a hacksaw blade or piece of other unknown material that didn't react to your heating/tempering the way you wished it would.  Two - three hours wasted.  Rrrrr!

So, by purchasing real spring stock you eliminate (or reduce) the failure rate and frustration.  I know exactly how 1095 works, how to harden and temper it.  I can also cheat by using my heat treating oven.    

[Dphariss]

Its easier to just buy spring stock. 1070 or 1090. Its for sale everywhere...
Band saw blades used for metal usually have HSS teeth and annealing can be difficult.

Dan

[bgf]

Mattdog,
You didn't spoil my fun -- it was mostly tongue in cheek anyway.  I can see it from the point of a professional (which I won't claim to have any aspiration of being).  On the other hand, my perspective is that for builders in it for fun at a glacial (sometimes) pace anyway, buying something esp. in a non-critical application like a PB spring, isn't always an urgent choice, and there is often a lot to learn, in re-using material.  Also, there is nothing against storing up a good quantity of the material once you know it works.  For example, I have a good bit of strapping that would have gone to waste, but I (after some advanced @$#%&*@ around know how it works and what it is good for.  Likewise, I have a pretty good grip on which hacksaw blades work, etc.  Like most of my knowledge of esoterica, that may never be necessary, but I still feel better knowing it, if that makes any sense.

[whetrock]

To follow on bgf's comments, I’ll say that I definitely get a certain kind of enjoyment of making things out of junk. I do understand the suggestion some of the guys have made that we might save time and frustration by starting with 1095 or some other known quantity. And for many of us here, time really is money. So the suggestion to use 1095 is understandable.

At the same time, for some of us, there is something particularly enjoyable about working with scrap. It’s not just that we are cheap skates. It’s because the activity gives us a certain sort of satisfaction. And it's not that we always work with scrap, but when do make something cool out of some piece of junk, it gives us the feeling (imagined as it may be) that we are approaching in some manner the mechanical mastery required of the old smiths (even if we never reach their level of artistic mastery). For some of the guys on here, the joy of building a firearm is closely related to their sense of mastery of that process and those skills. We could reshape a piece of 1095, but that’s not the point. We want to develop the skill required to make that thing out of a piece of broken saw blade, or a worn out file, or a piece of a pitch fork tine—we want to do it like the old guys did (or at least like we imagine they did it).

We imagine, at least, that this sort of cleverness was required of many early American gunsmiths and blacksmiths. It was probably required of some more than others, depending on their access to quality materials. But we do see it in certain anecdotes and collections, such as the anecdotes told about Tennessee gunsmith, Hacker Martin (see Foxfire 5, 1979). And the collections of tools, etc. that John Rice Irwin documents in his Guns and Gunmaking Tools of Southern Appalachia (1980, 1983), made from files and various pieces of salvaged metal. Those collections of tools are not valuable for the reason of representing superior craftsmanship. They are valuable for more nostalgic, even philosophical reasons. It’s because of the clever, creative spirit that they represent.

This is not to put off on or criticize anyone who doesn’t share that interest. It’s just to identify with those who do.

[blaksmth]

 For annealing  I use dry portland type 2 cement  have a half barrel in the shop and bury it in that,