Help Me Identify the Maker of this Virginia Rifle

[Mark Elliott]

I have been asked to recreate the rifle in this photo by a descendant of the gentlemen pictured here; William "Bigfoot" Wallace.   The problem is, I have no idea what the side plate or cheek piece look like.   If I knew who made the rifle,  I might have a shot at correctly determining what the left side of the gun looked like.    So,  does anybody have an idea who made it?

The rifle was brought to east Texas in 1836 from Lexington,VA.    To me,  the stock profile and triggers say SW VA or E. TN.   The trigger guard and thimbles are telling me that they are from considerably farther north.   They very much remind me of John Sheets.  

Click on this link for a higher resolution version: https://s3.amazonaws.com/markelliottva/BBS+Stuff/William_AA_Wallace_c1872.jpg

[smokinbuck]

Given the lock and trigger gaurd I would say that this is probably a flint to percussion rifle and being a 1/2 stock it may have been a parts rifle.
Mark

[Mark Elliott]

The rifle is a full stock and not a half stock.     It has a V shaped forearm with three faceted thimbles and no nose piece.    The lock was obviously flint.   You can see the remnants of the pan and the holes for the frizzen spring.     I am assuming the nose piece was lost when the barrel was shortened to convert it to percussion.    It had crossed my mind that the mounts were recycled from another rifle.    The rifle had to be pretty cheap for a 19 year old to afford it.   

[smokinbuck]

Mark,
My apologies re the full/ half stock, I should have looked closer.
Mark

[JTR]

Clicking on your link, then clicking on the picture to zoom it up a bit, I see a rifle with a fairly straight comb and toe line on the butt, a strong nose where the comb meets the wrist, decent styled lock mortice, with a small cut or dimple at the tail of the mortice. Most of this points to a Lancaster area rifle. The trigger guard looks sort of like a C. Beck, but slender. I can't tell what type of wood it was made of. The V shaped forearm could point to a lot of places. But since you mention that the gun came from Lexington Va., not much chance it would have been made in PA.....

Good luck,
John

[Mark Elliott]

I am pretty sure the gun was stocked in Rockbridge County or vicinity.   The comb and toe are just like the rest of the late flint guns in SW VA and E. TN.   Of course, the gun could have a step toe and it would be very hard to tell from the angle.   It's the trigger guard that is throwing me.   It is so thin.   It is also pretty beat up, but the man holding it could have been responsible for that.   William A.A. Wallace is a direct descendant of William Wallace of Braveheart fame and is genuine Wild West hero in his own right.  He is in the Texas Rangers Hall of Fame.   They even made a movie about him in the 50's where his part was played by Chuck Connors and the script was written by Aron Spelling, of all people.

My big questions are did the rifle have a straight cheek piece or an oval (Hawken type) cheek piece; and what did the side plate look like?    The more I look at he gun,  the more I think the mounts have absolutely nothing to do with who was stocking it and there is no way for me to know what the side plate or cheek looked like.   

I do think this photo is very instructive.   It shows us the what kind of rifle an actual frontier hero carried.   He bought the rifle when he was 19 and heading off to Texas to avenge the deaths of his brother and cousin at the hands of Santa Anna's Army.    That was 1836.   The photo was taken in 1872, and he still had the rifle,  and it was important enough to him to have his picture taken with it.   You know as a Ranger, he almost certainly had a Colt revolver and probably a Winchester repeating rifle.  That is not what he had his picture taken with.   His picture was taken with a perfectly plain, beat up old longrifle he bought a as green kid in Virginia.  Who knows what happened to the rifle,  though?  Wallace was never married, and didn't have any children, and the Wallace family in Texas doesn't have the rifle.   At least, the Wallace relative I am working for doesn't know where it is.   Wm A.A. Wallace lived until 1899 and died in Bigfoot,Texas near San Antonio.   He was buried in the Texas State Cemeterry in Austin,  right in front of Stephen F. Austin.

[Shreckmeister]

my eyes may be playing tricks but I see a short nosecap. is that a pistol in holster on right side?  I like the decorated horn. great picture.  am I seeing a cameo cut around the wrist like dormyers did?  looking at this on a cell phone so its not. very big

[jdm]

 Great story .  Mr. Wallace sounds like he was a very interesting man.

[G-Man]

Mark- this is just my opinion, but I would lean toward this being a product made somewhere  in, or to the south or west, of Rockbridge and Botetourt counties, as you suggested as a possibility.  The architecture does not look like John Sheets (the Staunton Sheets) to me - too much wrist and the comb to wrist transition is too defined.  To me it looks a little like something John Painter or John Behelor might have done.

Whoever made it, what a cool photograph it is - thanks for posting it Mark.  I just finsihed reading a great book called "Empire of the Summer Mooon" - about the history of the Comanches and their wars with the Texans - this photo just evokes the feel of that era really well.   Anyone interested in Texas history or the trasnition from the eastern frontier to Texas  - should check the book out - it is a recent book and our library had it.  Really fascinating stuff.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

AS I looked at the stock, I wondered abour NC origin. It seems to have a steep shoulder and long wrist, similar to the Lamb rifle I own.

[Avlrc]

Awesome photo!

[Dennis Glazener]

The triggers look much like the ones on a D Sheets mountain rifle that I owned but sold last year. I believe it to have been by David Sheets of NC, Rowan County if I remember correctly.
Dennis

[Howard]

I love the horn & bag outfit. that is much better than the rifle. That outfit is wonderful!

[Mark Elliott]

I was thinking of Painter as source of the rifle, but I can't square that with the guard.    As to a nose piece,  it looks like there is one there until you look at the high resolution image.   That light spot is where the wood is very worn.   

It is too bad we don't have more good photographs of longrifles with their owners.   

[Dennis Glazener]

As to a nose piece,  it looks like there is one there until you look at the high resolution image.   That light spot is where the wood is very worn.   

Mark when I blew that photo up I thought it looked like a brass band around the nose. I have seen these in many NC rifles. They leave the wood in front of the brass band.
Dennis

[Shreckmeister]

I love the horn & bag outfit. that is much better than the rifle. That outfit is wonderful!

I'm with you on that bag and horn.  I haven't see the body of a horn tacked like that before
but I suppose if you drilled a hole and bent the tack over inside it would work.
I think I might try to recreate that horn.  Pretty cool!

[C. Cash]

Love it!  Thanks for posting.

[Lucky R A]

     I kind of hate to bring this up, as it kind of destroys the "romance" of the whole project, but wasn't it common for photography studios of the era to have on hand various and sundry weapons for their subjects to pose with.  I know for sure this was common during of pictures taken during the Civil war.   just a thought.....

Ron

[Buck]

That's a possibility. That would be discouraging.
Buck

[Dphariss]

Is the photo DATED?
Given that Wallace was 20 in 1836 I suspect this was taken about 1856 or probably later.
Then we have to ask did he get his rifle and pistols back after being taken by he Indians as he claimed he was?
Then we have to ask is the stuff he is wearing all his? Photographers often had their own props. I like the pistol in the holster a lot. Its set up for horse back use. But he came to Texas with a pair.
In the 1880s LA Huffman owned a heavy barreled 40-90 Sharps that is still in the family. He hunted with it and it appears in photos taken in his studio.
While this could be the rifle Big Foot brought to Texas when he was 20 it might not be either. I am betting on the latter. A rifle in use in VA in 1836 might be a little light for the western plains.

 
Dan

[Dennis Glazener]

Blowup Marks full size print in photoshop, there is some type of nose cap on that rifle, there is definite lines between wood and metal. It still looks to me like a metal band of some type.
Dennis

[C. Cash]

The age and wear on that strap, the rifle and the owner all seem consistent to me.  Photographer's props often seem new and/or out of place when compared with other items displayed, but what I'm seeing seems to jibe that the outfit/rifle were his.  No guarantees but that is my gut.

[Majorjoel]

I can also see a short nose cap on this rifle. I think there are a lot of similarities with plain rifles out of western PA like Allegheny County. The long wrist and the narrow trigger guard. Mark, if I were you I would follow this example on Gunbroker for your cheek piece and side plate. While the trigger guard is a bit different on this rifle, in the time frame these were made, they seem to come pretty close. Now, do you have any information as to how tall Mr. Wallace was? That would set you up for the length of the barrel on your project.  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=331993645

[Bennypapa]

While this could be the rifle Big Foot brought to Texas when he was 20 it might not be either. I am betting on the latter. A rifle in use in VA in 1836 might be a little light for the western plains.


Dan

Dan,
As to the suitability of caliber for geography...  this geographical reasoning is a non starter because his stated reason for going to TX was to avenge the deaths of family at the hands of Santa Ana. So probably bigger caliber was needed for shooting at people but that is of topic so I'll hush now.


Oh, and Mark, thanks for sharing the photo. It is great.
Ben

[bgf]

Regarding the triggerguard, I don't think it is much if at all different in profile (large bow, relatively short grip, slightly recurved spike) from the maker G.B. whom W. Gusler associates with Rockbridge County (although he may have moved later to NC or E.Tn.) a little earlier.  It does seem to be rather thin (in width), but that is seen often in later rifles from Shenandoah County and could easily have spread SW as a style.  The comb and wrist profile is not consistent with any of G.B.'s work, though.  I would have to assume that it is a much later fashion, as seen in some other makers associated with SW Virginia perhaps being influenced by E. Tn. and NC makers.  The short nose cap is right in line with SW Va. work, also.