TIME

[ken]

I read in Dixons book that the old timers took about 10 hours to stock a gun.  I have spent the good part of a day inletting a barrel and breech plug. Almost done but how did they do it.? Were they part beaver or what. Just trying to remind myself on why I do this.

[Mark Elliott]

I think it depends on the gun maker.   I can imagine there were some that only took 10 hours. , but I am pretty sure Issac Haines took a little longer. 

[Mike Gahagan]

I think that they used vodoo or black magic like some of the guys out there today that can build a complete gun in a week.I can eat up a whole week just putting in the lock,butt plate,trigger/trigger guard and other components and not even getting close to any shaping.I guess because I am so slow,it amazes me that anyone could work that fast.The old timers though cut a lot of corners that we wouldn't be able to get away with
 today.

[Acer Saccharum]

I can stock that gun in 9 hrs.

Plus 100 more.

[rich pierce]

Ever see somebody who has been doing something for years and be just amazed at their speed and efficiency?  My mom could snip beans while talking about anything so fast it would make your head spin.  Prep chefs chopping veges?  B-ball players doing what they do?  A musician? Something about learning it as a kid and doing it over and over, is probably a lot more likely to develop efficient speed than learning by doing it occasionally later in life.

My recollection of the folklore is that stocking a musket could be done in a day, that building a rifle took a week to 10 days, but that would include making a lot of parts.

[J. Talbert]

I'm just curious... So what is the documentation for the 10 hour figure?

Just wondering,
Jeff 

[TMerkley]

I inlet a 28" barrel in twelve hours minus the lock.  But, the barrel groove was not exactly perfect either.  The proper tools also makes one heck of a difference along with wood that didn't have a high moisture content.  Then there was quite a bit more shaping to do after that.  One thing that those old timers must have had was PATIENCE!

[Hawken62_flint]

Different people work at different speeds.  My buddy and I are building 2 look alike VA rifles from scratch.  He was able to inlet his swamped 42" barrel in about 8 hours and then took another 4 to inlet the tang.  I on the other hand have about 15 hours into inletting the barrel and probably still have another 10 or more to go.  He is now waiting on me to catch up, as we were trying to complete the rifles at the same time.  I suppose that if you did it for a living and had a lot of practice, you could get to where you could inlet most barrels, especially straight ones in less than 10 hours.

[rich pierce]

I've always been afraid to keep a log of the time spent in building a rifle, but will do it next time.  But first I have to figure out which of the 12 builds in my head is next!

[David Rase]

I can eat up a whole week just putting in the lock,butt plate,trigger/trigger guard and other components and not even getting close to any shaping.

Mike,
Your time line makes me feel pretty good.  I thoght I was the only one who took that much time to do that amount of work.  I am the king of slow.
David

[satwel]

Before the adoption of Thomas Blanchard's stock duplicating lathe, it took a journeyman stock maker at Springfield Armory about 14 hours to stock a musket.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Back in my early life, when I first started in the hobby, I was more shy of cutting close to a scribed line when doing stock wood work.  I would cut to near the line and candle black the part about three bazillion times before in fit right - hours & hours!  Now in my old age I scribe a line, cut right to it and get the job done in a very short time, just experience I assume.  Now occasionally I inlet a gun sideplate in one cut, no candleblack at all, just a couple of minutes.  So the time spent in woodwork has decreased significantly over the years.

Sort of reminds me of watching a skilled worker lay cinderblock - it looks so easy and goes so fast - until I try it, myself.  I have no idea how a human being can lay cinderblock fast and perfect!

I am sure that this is the same with those old timers that satwel posted of at Springfield Armory, I am sure that they worked amazingly fast, and well!

Jim

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I find that there are things that I Like to do and they don't take very long. I also find that there are things that I don't like to do and they take a long time.

Many rifles ago I timed everything I did and the rifle took me about 120 hours. Now for some reason I think they take longer. I don't exactly know why.

[Hungry Horse]

 I would question the time required as well. But, that being said, I had the pleasure of mentoring two high school seniors, on their senior projects. Both decided to build a muzzleloaders. One chose a kit, the other chose to work from parts. The kit guy showed up a couple times a week, and worked very hard, but quite slow. The parts guy, had girl friends, sports, a car, and parties, that obviously took priority. A week before the projects were due, he showed up after school, and was ready to work. He jumped on that stock, and went at it with a vengeance that scared me to death. In two long evenings he had the gun stocked and functional. I wanted to throw my tools in the dumpster, and take up golf. It was like he could see the finished gun hidden in the piece of wood, and never make a cut that compromised it.

                      Hungry Horse

[4ster]

What's so hard about turning a blank into a stock.  You just remove the wood that isn't going to be the stock with an adze and a few rasps, then scrape it a bit.  You just picture the finished stock locked in the blank, simple.   

It probably is simple for those with talent and a lot of experience.  For me not so much.  Lots of added time makes up for most my lack of the essentials.

[Mike Gahagan]

Mike,
Your time line makes me feel pretty good.  I thoght I was the only one who took that much time to do that amount of work.  I am the king of slow.
David
[/quote]


I don`t know David.I think that I have bragging rights when it comes to being the slowest of the slow. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There is a big difference between making a gun for a hobby, even when you've done it lots, and making them for a living.  When someone is paying you hourly, or you're paying yourself, you must learn quickly to work fast and efficiently.  Otherwise, you or your boss will go under.
I worked for a little over three years for a gunsmith, making Hawken rifles, from precarved walnut.  I was hired to create the prototype, and it was the pattern for every rifle thereafter.  Over those three years we added models like full stocks, short ladies and kids rifles, and a pistol.  But working with a precarved walnut stock that was very close to finished dimensions, and uniform parts, allowed me to turn out a rifle in a little more than three days, completely finished with DemBart's Oil, and browned with Birchwood Casey's Plumb brown.  
My point is that if you're living depends upon it, you will learn to work fast and efficiently.  But when you're doing it for pleasure in your spare time, and it doesn't matter how long it takes, think of it as making love.  Savour it.

[Pete G.]

I would hazard a guess that the ten hour figure came from about a day's work. These guys were doing it for a living, so time was money. Paging through Kindig's book or RCA you will find few if any that remotely resemble some of the "super guns" that some can turn out today. Not to say that the old boys weren't capable, but most customers weren't capable of paying for such. Studying old collections it appears that most that were capable of paying the price mostly spent their money on European guns.

[Rolf]

10 hours for a whole gun!!! Heck, I use almost 10 hours to fit the breech plug to the barrel.

Best regards

Rolf

[roamer]

One thing I know , as recolection of things become more distant they. become blurred and less accurate.

[NSBrown]

HH,
Could that kid have been Jim Kibler?

[Mark Elliott]

I keep a detailed time sheet on most of my work so that I know how to price my work.   I have been spending 220-300 hours on a rifle.   Of course that includes redoing a lot of finishing steps in an attempt to get the aged appearance that I want.   It also included sighting in and photography.   If I didn't have to worry about aging a gun,  you could knock at least 40 hours off those figures.    My basic stocking time has decreased considerably since I started, because I take more wood off to start,  use tools that remove material faster, and take more short cuts.   I can go from a blank to barrel inlet,  ramrod groove cut, and ramrod hole drilled in less than 16 hours.  I did it in 12 hours once.   If I did it like the original makers, just fitting the barrel at the muzzle and breech,  I could probably do it in less than 8 hours.    With a gouge and gunstocking plane, you can get the barrel channel roughed out in less than an hour.    You can fuss over the rest of it for a very long time if you want.  The original makers didn't.

I just looked at my time sheet for the last gun and it took me 5.5 hours to inlet the lock and install the screws.    I have been taking more time with the locks and inletting them a bit neater.   If I inlet them like the original makers,  I could certainly get it done in less than 2 hours.   If you don't care about how much wood you remove or small inletting gaps,   You can throw a rifle together pretty quickly once you have some experience.   I does show though.   

You should keep in mind that the guns we have to examine were the special guns that were worthy of preserving and keeping.   The everyday guns that were used day in and day out and were probably the 10 hours guns,  didn't make it to today.   They were worn to splinters and the barrel used for tomato stakes.    Look at the photo I posted of Wm. Wallace and his rifle.    It was a perfectly plain rifle and he had had it and used it for 36 years in that photo.   It was converted to percussion and just had the nose piece chopped off of it as a result.   A big piece of wood was missing above the lock forward of the pan/drum.   We see that a lot in old guns.   The lock was not quite in the mortice straight and the mortice was chewed up.   The muzzle and the toe were also chewed up pretty good.   Even at that,  that gun was enough of a prized procession to that man that he had his picture taken with it.   We probably don't get to see many guns like that.

I've always been afraid to keep a log of the time spent in building a rifle, but will do it next time.  But first I have to figure out which of the 12 builds in my head is next!

[JoeG]

when I worked at Green River Rifle Works
you were expected to put a 1/2 stock Leman into the white in 24 hrs

A 1/2 stock or full stock Hawken took a lot longer

that was starting with a stock that had the butt roughly  pre-shaped stock
barrel channel cut, ramrod hole not drilled
barrel had the under rib with pipes  installed
front and rear  sight dovetails cut
the riflesmith roughed in the lock with with a panograph carver

even with all that work done it was hard to finish one out in the time allowed

[eagle24]

If it ever becomes about getting one stocked quick, I'll just have to quit.  I like to work a little every day, but not much any day.  Sometimes it's 15 minutes, on occasion I might work 2 hrs.  Most days 30 or 40 minutes is about it.  I'm on day 9 inletting a lollipop tang, but that's ok.  I like how it is going so far........of course I'm just getting to the lollipop.