Author Topic: Steel nose cap  (Read 8142 times)

roamer

  • Guest
Steel nose cap
« on: March 09, 2013, 08:53:42 AM »
Fellas , I may have asked this question before,Iam going to be upgrading a Tennesee rifle and Id like your opinions on what gauge and type of steel to use for the nose cap

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 09:38:31 AM »
As thin as you can get away with.   I use 22ga sheet for my one piece steel nose pieces.  That is a little less than 1/32".   You will have to use thicker if you want to add decorative filing.   

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 10:57:09 AM »
 If you really want to upgrade it, pour a pewter nose cap with the chevron pattern, or zigzag pattern. these are seen quite often on southern mountain rifles. My grandad had one in the 20's with a zinc chevron cap he poured himself, made from old canning jar lids.

                      Hungry Horse

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 03:28:00 PM »
The proper type of steel to use for a Tennessee rifle is not a steel at all, wrought iron is the answer.  Steel in the period was a costly product and was used only for a very few applications.  The stuff we call mild steel today was introduced by the Bessemer process around 1860.  I you use the correct material, wrought iron, you will find it to be much more easily formable and ductile than any modern steel.  Try it, you will like it.

Jim

Offline heinz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 03:45:03 PM »
Although I agree with Mr Everett,  finding sheet wrought iron is close to impossible and working a bar down to the desired thickness is a lot of work.  Mark's suggestion of 22 guage is good.  You can also use 16 ga.  without much problem although it takes more work and some care if you are doing a ramrod groove style.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:45:41 PM by heinz »
kind regards, heinz

Offline Maalsral

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 10:42:19 PM »
How is the best way to attach the nose cap when it is made with such thin metal?
Mark Thomas

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 12:01:07 AM »
Jim,

Where do you get wrought iron sheet?    I would love to use that, but I can tell you that I sure don't want to beat it out of bar stock.   I don't have that much time or energy.

Mark

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 12:53:23 AM »
Mark,

Wrought iron sheet can be easily found in old barn hinges, but usually this material is about 1/8 inch thick so must be thinned.  Another source that is more difficult to find is wagon wheel hub bands - not the big rims - these are the barrel hoop type bands that hold the wheel hub together they are about 2 inches wide, 1/16 inch thick and about 7 inches diameter.  I do encourage you to try this material, at least to get an appreciation for the traditional methods of gun making.  Probably the old time gunsmith who made the Tenn. style rifle did not drive to Lowes to buy some 22 gauge stuff,either!

Jim

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 01:06:17 AM »
Quote
Wrought iron sheet can be easily found in old barn hinges, but usually this material is about 1/8 inch thick so must be thinned.
Thanks, how I know what to make with that old piece of wrought iron strap hinge I have laying under the work bench!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 02:16:05 AM »
Jim,

I do appreciate traditional methods of gun building.   It is just that my back does not. ;D   I will look around for some hinges and give it a try.

Mark

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 02:30:43 AM »
Quote
...
Probably the old time gunsmith who made the Tenn. style rifle did not drive to Lowes to buy some 22 gauge stuff,either!

Jim

No, but they probably went somewhere to get wrought iron :).  Don't you think they might have had various types and sizes of stock available by 1800 at least?  I think iron production would have been a specialized operation.  While they probably did recycle some pieces, I'm skeptical that they started every rifle with a pile of hinges and wagon rims!

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 02:45:59 AM »
Quote
No, but they probably went somewhere to get wrought iron  :).
Reading this I had to chuckle. Mathew Gillespie worked in his father's gunshop and supposedly on one of his 40 mile round trips to purchase iron for his father's gunmaking operation, he met the iron monger's daughter, Elizabeth Sitton. They soon married and Mathew built his shop right beside his father-in-law's iron furnace operation. I guess that made it easier to get raw materials.
Dennis
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 03:02:50 AM by Dennis Glazener »
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
  • Mitch Yates
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 03:16:15 AM »
Quote
While they probably did recycle some pieces, I'm skeptical that they started every rifle with a pile of hinges and wagon rims
Bgf
I agree with you and I hope by period methods Jim is meaning period materials (wrought iron instead of mild steel).Once you get past the content of the iron the tools and the methods are the same as they would have been in the 18th century.The notion that gunsmiths were making their guns out of scrap is far from the truth.Most of them were on busy trade routes and had access to many goods both foreign and domestic.If you study period inventories and ledgers of merchants and gunsmiths of the period you would be amazed at the variety of good they had access to.Here is a daily price list from a merchant in Boston in the 1790's,four different kinds of iron and three different kinds of steel are available.Pretty wide variety of good are available and that variety of goods certainly expanded as you got to the iron mounted Tennessee guns.
Mitch

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 04:35:05 AM »
I have little doubt that Jim is right that a pre-1840 gunsmith would have to make their own sheet.   There is a reason you see casting patterns for patchboxes.    I would only go to the trouble of making my own sheet for an all hand made rifle.    If I get one of those done in my lifetime,  I will be doing good.   More than likely,  any all handmade rifle I make would be a brass mounted colonial VA rifle.   So I would be casting sheet and hammering it out.  Maybe one of these days I will get a used rolling mill to make the process easier.   It is not uncommon for jewelers to make their own wire and sheet.

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
  • Mitch Yates
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »
Mark
While I agree with you to some extent when it comes to brass,although brass mounts/sheet were both imported or available from local brass founders we were discussing iron/steel sheet.

Mitch
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 05:36:20 AM by aka tallbear »

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2013, 05:58:10 AM »
I thought rolling mills for sheet iron were in use in England ca 1800.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2013, 06:31:02 AM »
I just had a thought.   When was tinned iron sheet available for tin ware?   If tinned sheet was available,  plain sheet should have been available. 

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18385
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2013, 03:02:45 PM »
Mithch,

 What an interesting inventory, gunpowder, shot; all sizes, tin in sheets, six kinds of Rum, three kinds of tobacco, James River at the top and elephants teeth.

  Thanks, Tim

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2013, 03:13:55 PM »
To aka tallbear,

What a great response, a wonderful bit of research!  Thanks so much for posting this.  Would it be possible to transmit to me a good resolution copy of the inventory for my research file?  I find this sort of information to be great.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline heinz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2013, 03:25:46 PM »
Mark, interesting question on tinned sheet iron.  I know the sheet metal pot and can maker types who I knew in my youth tinned their own products using "foaming" flux, a mixture of sink spelter and muriatic acid,which is very effective but scares me. 
Wikipedia gives a a history under "tinning"  I know they are not reliable but this looks fairly well done and suggests wide availability after 1800 with English mills shipping product.
I would note that "tin" in sheets usually refers to tinned iron or steel.  Pure tin itself is quite brittle.
kind regards, heinz

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 04:03:00 AM »
Tallbear,
Thanks, that is a big list.  With that, the reference Heinz gives, Mark's observation, and a little more reading, I think it is almost certain sheet iron would have been available in gunsmithing size quantities fairly early! 

Also, I do remember something about the British requiring the "colonies" to export pig iron and not have their own rolling mills.  It might be far-fetched, but it is worth considering that the use of cast brass might have been related to the cost of (re-imported) iron in some places, times, and situations.  By the time of most of the "Tennessee" rifles, iron would have been produced domestically in substantial quantities, though.

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2013, 07:46:42 PM »
What an interesting list, and thanks for posting it!
John
John Robbins

Offline tallbear

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
  • Mitch Yates
Re: Steel nose cap
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 01:47:33 AM »
James
I will send it too you but since I picked it up off the net I'm not sure how much clearer it will be.

I think sometimes we get an over romantic vision of 18th century gunmakers/craftsmen.The idea that the gunsmith went into the woods and harvested his gunstock and made every part of the rifle right down to the last screw.The reality is he used imported items when available just the same as we do today.Read through these advertisements from the Pennsylvania Gazette compliments of Eric Kettenburg.They just scratch the surface but give an idea of the volume of good being imported.Gun mounts,sheet iron,assorted wood screws,iron,steel,tools.........


August 26, 1772


The Pennsylvania Gazette


BENJAMIN POULTNEY,


Has imported in the Chalkley, and other vessels from Bristol, a neat assortment of IRONMONGERY, which he has for sale, wholesale and retail, at his ironmongery store, at the sign of the Crown and Anvil, in Market street, about Fourth street, and opposite the sign of the Conestogoe Waggon, where such persons as will please to favour him with their custom, may be supplied with the following articles, at the very lowest prices, and of the best qualities, viz. ANVILS, vizes, beak irons, sledge and hand hammers, mill and crosscut saws, Stedmanrefined and common steel plate, hand, pannel, and tennant ditto; sash, dovetail, compass, and woodcutters saws; 24 and 26 inch common iron ditto; flat, half round, 3 square, and round files, from 3 to 14 inches; long and short firmers, from 1/8th to 2 inches, mortice, turning and socket chissels and gouges; plane irons of most sizes and kinds; brass and iron headed shovels and tongs; 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 inch brass knob locks; brass knob bow and long latches; 4, 5, and 6 inch iron rim locks; chest, cupboard, clockcase, and prospect ditto; padlocks, of various sorts; horse ditto; rifle gun barrels and locks; 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 14 inch stock locks; brass handles and escutcheons for desks, drawers, &c. locks for ditto; 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 inch brass H hinges; deskfall, prospect, and clockcase ditto; deskfall and cupboard brass locks; brass knobs, turn buttons, and cloak pins, of various sizes; silvered coffin furniture; 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 inch iron H and HL hinges; rule joint, table, writing desk, dovetail, and chest ditto, of several sizes; 2d. 3d. 4d. 5d. and 6d. sprigs; trunk, clout, and hob nails; tenter hooks and tacks; 3d. 4d. 6d. 8d. 10d. 12d. and 20d. nails; 1/2 inch to 1 1/2 inch very best bright augers; center, spool, chair, pinning, and dowel bitts; common and kirby fishhooks; snap and wire mousetraps; steel mink ditto; drawing knives; carpenters and coopers axes and adzes; faggotted, blistered and German steel; shoemakers hammers, pincers, nippers, awl blades, and tacks; steel coffee and box spicemills; steelyards; curriers quarter and half knives, with steels for ditto; sash lines, and box pullies; spinning wheel and flat irons; buck, shambuck, and split bone table knives and forks; butchers knives, 1/2 inch to 2 1/2 inch woodscrews; 8 by 6, 9 by 7, 10 by 8, 11 by 9, and 12 by 10, Taylorwindow glass, and putty to put the same in with; 11 by 11, 12 by 12, and 16 by 12, glass for clock faces; castiron bakeovens, saucepans, skillets, griddles, or bake plates, waggon boxes, pestles and mortars, chafing dishes, brass kettles, grindstones, &c. &c. with a number of articles, not here inserted. N. B. Glass cut for clock faces, surveying instruments, window or door lights, either round, oval, or to any pattern or dimensions, at a very reasonable price.


October 3, 1765


The Pennsylvania Gazette


To be sold by the Subscriber, living at the Crown, Cannister and Handsaw, in Second street, between Market and Chestnut streets, for cash or short credit, at reasonable rates...  anvils, beek irons, sledge and hand hammers; standing bench and hand vizes, mill, cross cut, hand, tennant, sash, dovetail and compass


saws of several sorts; AC No. 3 London steel; sheet iron, cart boxes, iron pots, brass kettles, tin in boxes; brass and iron wire, brass and iron candlesticks of various kinds and sizes, scale beams, scales and weights, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 inch H and HL hinges; door, desk, drawer, chest, book case, prospect, closet, trunk, gun, pad and horse locks of various sorts, plate bolts from 2 to 12 inches; brass knob and thumb latches; pen, pistol cap, cutteau, pruning, butcher, shoe and table knives, and forks; table, dovetail, chest, desk and strap hinges; a large assortment of joiners tools and brass furniture; silvered and tinned coffin anvils, all kinds of files and rasps, carpenters, coopers and shoemakers tools of all sorts; taylors, glovers and sheep shears; all sorts of screws, screw plates, hand irons, shovels, tongs and bellows, frying and warming pans, gridirons, griddles; temple and Dutch spectacles; an assortment of sadlery; slates and pencils; box


and steel coffee and pepper metals, chest handles, keyrings and swivels, snuffers, half inch, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6d battin, clout and trunk nails; 8, 12, 14 and 16 ounce tacks, tinned ditto, spurs, ivory and horn combs, gimblets, bong and tap borers, wood and wire rat and mouse traps, shoe and knee buckles, scissars, brass cocks, curtain rings, silver watches, watch keys, seals, glasses, pendants and springs; cheese tasters, an assortment of pewter, sad and box irons, hob and pump nails, gun mounting, compass dials, black and tinned curry combs, sash line, pullies and weights, box iron stands, brass inkpots, a large assortment of fish hooks and lines, sewing and knitting needles of several sorts, bed screws, sadlers strainers, ready wrought tin of several sorts, bullet and swan shot moulds, quart and pint black jacks, razors and hones, rag, Crumb creek and oil stones, flints, fire steels, cloak pins, cotton and wool cards, London and American glue, allom, sulphur, brimstone, copperas, madder, chalk, emery, Spanish brown, red, white and bar lead; powder and shot, magnes, yellow oker, antimony, litharge, umber, Prussian blue, verdigrease, vermilion, logwood, braziletto, ground redwood, rosin, salt petre, pepper, alspice, cloves, cinnamon, mace, nutmegs, camphire, gum arabick, gum dragon, blue and white vitriol, ink powder, powder blue, aloes, cream of tartar, borax, Epsom salts, Godfreycordial, Batemandrops, hungary water, lamp black, linseed oil, pipes, spirits of turpentine, varnish...  and sundry other things not mentioned. JONATHAN ZANE.


September 29, 1768


The Pennsylvania Gazette


Just imported in the last vessels from London and Bristol, and to be sold by the subscriber, at the sign of the Crown, Cannister and Handsaw, in Second street, between Market and Chestnut streets, a large and general assortment of MERCHANDIZE, among which are the following articles, viz...  red and white lead, Spanish brown and whiting, yellow oaker, venetian red, verdigrease, vermilion, Prussian blue, antimony, magnes, madder, ground and stick redwood, bar logwood, fustick, galls, English glue, salt petre, allom, copperas...  best steel plate, hand, pannel, tennent, sash, dovetail, and compass saws, common steel ditto, wood cutters, crosscut and mill saws, a very large assortment of smiths and other files and rasps, augers, gouges, chissels, plain and jointer irons, iron squares, carpenters hammers, shingling hatchets, carpenters, joyners, and coopers adzes, hatchets and axes, small house hatchets, drawing knives, and spoke sheaves, center, dowelling, taper and spool bitts, coopers and carpenters iron and steel compasses, turners chissels and gouges, foot, 18 inches, and two feet rules, two feet scales, wood and brass feet size sticks, folding yards, gunter sliding rules, brassnob and ring front door latches, brass front door knockers, brass and iron rimmed, brass nobbed, and ring inside door locks and latches, variety of single and double shot stock locks, strait and crooked round and flat plate bolts, brass knobbed ditto, hooks and hinges, H, HL, and T hinges, chest ditto, black and bright padlocks, desk, drawer, book case, trunk, saddle bag and portmanteau ditto, hasps and staples, table butt hinges...  single and double wormed gun screws, gun mounting, pocket and compass dials, fire steels, a large assortment of flat and round head wood screws, screw drivers...  smiths standing vizes, black and bright bench and hand ditto, anvils, beck irons, strait and cross pained sledges and hand hammers, rivetting ditto, best London steel, bar iron....  common, half and whole bridle gun locks...  &c. &c. &c. JONATHAN ZANE. N.B. All persons indebted to the subscriber, beyond their contracts, are requested to discharge the same, to prevent disagreeable measures.

February 21, 1765


The Pennsylvania Gazette


JAMES SMITH, BRASS FOUNDER, WHO lately lived at the Corner of Coombe Alley, in Front street, now carries on his Business at the North End of Fourth


street, at the Sign of the Bell, and makes and sells all Sorts of Brass Work, large and small Cocks for Brewers, Distillers and Water Works, Brass Chambers for Pumps, Mill Brasses for Grist and Saw Mills, all Sorts of Mill Work for the West dcIndies, Clock, Gun and Sadlers Work, with several other Things too tedious to mention. All Persons who shall apply to the said James Smith. may be supplied with any of the above Articles in the cheapest and best Manner, and Customers may depend on meeting with the best Treatment and Dispatch. Ready Money for old Brass, Copper, or old cast Iron.


If you want to get a better understanding of 18th century craftsman I highly recommend you get a copy of the book "With Hammer in Hand "by Hummel.It documents the Dominy family of clock and furniture makers in East Hampton NY starting in the mid 1700's through the late 1800's.As expected as skilled craftsman of the period they repaired guns regularly.It documents their tools,work and includes sections from their ledger books from 1775-1800.The account of what they were buying and selling is fascinating.They regularly purchased screws,springs,furniture knobs and various other raw materials.It was not uncommon for them to purchase things they could obviously make but it was cheaper and more cost efficient to buy imports(plane irons is one biggie off the top of my head).

Mitch Yates
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 01:50:53 AM by aka tallbear »