Author Topic: Barrel Proofing  (Read 8775 times)

Offline Ken G

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Barrel Proofing
« on: January 01, 2009, 01:18:23 AM »
I have a couple of barrels that need to be proofed and I'm looking for a way to ignite the powder from a distance.  I know most folks use cannon fuse but that's about as rare as hens teeth around here. 
Anyone used those Estes rocket motor igniters? 
Cheers,
Ken
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2009, 02:00:36 AM »
I make my own fuse. It's not difficult .  Mix some fffg with water and add a lehgth of pure cotton string to the mix until it is completely soaked in the mixture. Fish it out and hang it up until completely dry.
It is more fragile than bought fuse, but it does work. I get about 1 sec an inch with the string I use.

rogero

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2009, 02:44:13 AM »
you can also use potassium chlorate (avail @ drug store) then do the same as previously mentioned...
OR  you can use a  graphite pencil lead hooked between 2 wires then hook it to a battery size lg ... that works in a pinch
Rog

northwoodsdave

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 02:54:35 AM »
Ken

I am an old Estes fan, so know what you mean.  I would think they'd do a great job.  I'm assuming you mean the electric launcher type ignitors, which would actually be a very good way to remotely ignite the charge.  I'd just stuff it into the nipple, just the way you prepare a rocket engine to fire.

David L.

Offline davec2

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2009, 03:16:28 AM »
I make electric igniters all the time from very thin stranded copper wire.  Cut a piece of zip cord (i.e standard lamp wire) and you will find that it is made of multi stranded, very fine copper wire.  Take a single strand about 2 inches long and solder or wind it across the two ends of a piece of the same lamp cord.  Touch the far end to a car battery, or plug it into an outlet, and you will get all the fire you need.  This is basically a poor man's EBW (exploding bridge wire) which are used to fire many different types of ordinance.   If you can find them, the old fashioned photo flash bulbs make great igniters as well.  Black powder will usually go off if it is touching the outside of the bulb when it flashes.  Prime the barrel to be proofed with the touch hole up and leave a pile of powder over the hole.  tape the flash bulb down onto the powder and run the ignition wires off to a safe distance and apply battery power.

There are about 300 more ways to do this easily, cheaply, and safely with flash light bulbs, steel wool, 100 ohm resistors, tiny capacitors (from Radio Shack), etc, etc.  If you have any trouble, send me an e-mail.  You can always do this proofing by laying a lit cigarette across the touch hole / powder prime and just back off and wait for a few minutes.  Not quite as safe as an electrical method, but I've done it.

DC

P.S.  If you have or can get Estes igniters, they work just fine.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 03:17:20 AM by davec2 »
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Birddog6

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2009, 08:23:37 AM »
Byy a packl of firecrackers & twist 2-3-4 fuses together (or a drop of superglue) & use that. Test the barrel beside a barn, light the fuse & step around the side of the barn.  ;)

Offline Benedict

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2009, 08:55:02 PM »
Fire cracker fuse is what I use.  Now what to do with all those fuseless firecrackers?  ;D

Bruce

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2009, 03:48:55 AM »
The most important thing you can do to gain assurance that your barrel will not burst under normal loading is to have an honest-to-God modern test run on it, to determine whether or not it there are any cracks or seams in the steel.
One of the definitions of "Gun Barrel Quality" steel is that the steel mill does an extra fine job of testing the bar stock to assure that it is sound.
Cracks, seams--whatever are uncommon, but they do exist even in the most expensive steel. Now & again even in those nickel-base Superalloys used for gas turbine engines.
The modern test used for such purposes, or at least the best of them, is known as magnetic particle inspection, usually fluorescent magnetic partical inspection. A popular tradenamed device is "Magnaflux"
A few years ago I had a tour of Remington arms in NY state. They Magnafluxed rifle barrels, and used a somewhat less precise test for each shotgun barrel.
Proof Testing was the best thing people had up until some time in the 20th Century. A proof test is a nice thing to do. But really, all it tells you is that whatever crack may be present is just not large enough to cause the barrel to fail on the first couple of shots. If there is a crack, it is likely to grow just a little with each shot.
The messiest muzzle loading barrel failure I saw was of a barrel type known (at least to some of us) to be susceptible to cracks, perhaps formed during the cold drawing process. The gunmaker proofed the rifle, I'd have to search my records but best I recall was something over 200 grains in that .45. The owner put maybe 200-some shots through it before it came apart, taking most of one hand with it. I looked at one fragment & could see that it had evidence of a crack maybe 2--4" long in it. That piece was rusty, so what convinced that barrel maker (really, his insurance company) to cease advertising such barrels was a lot of small cracks found by the U. of Illinois Professor who was also involved in the suit.
The gun maker had proofed the barrel, which was the best one might expect of a custom maker.
Where my own fingers are concerned I'll take Magnaflux, thank you. Or, more precisely, my latest New Toy has a barrel of Gun Barrel Quality steel, a quality which involves the whole steel making process.
Just for kicks, in 1824 Col G Bomford's Regulations for the Proof and Inspection of Small Arms involved loading the .54 caliber common rifle with 1/28 pound (250 grains) powder and two lead bullets, each 1/32 pound (219 grains weight), with two paper wads each 1/2" long after being well rammed. One wad on the powder, the other on top of the balls. That was the first charge. The second charge was lighter, just 1/32 pound (219 grains) powder, only one bullet, and two wads.
This was done at a time when wrought iron barrels often had long seams either in the original iron skelp, or from incomplete forge welds. Weren't a lot of Magnaflux machines around in '24.
Good fortune to you. Statistics are on your side, only a very few contemporary muzzle-loading barrels burst. But for me, I've seen enough that you may have the statistics, thank you.
Yeah, I am that Pain-in-the-A--, Opinionated (and experienced some four decades) metallurgist.     

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2009, 04:27:38 AM »
I bought a coil of firecracker fuse(waterproof cherry bomb style, green varnished) at a fireworks store in New Hampshire.

You could probably get it in PA, unless you live in PA, then you may not be allowed.

That doesn't make sense, but that's the law. I stopped at a fireworks store in PA near Port Jervis, on my way home from Dixon's, and I could buy anything in the store as long as I was from another state. if I was from PA, I could not buy anything that exploded or left the ground. But I could buy all this stuff, rockets, cherry bombs, firecrackers, and bring it into NewYork, where it is so totally illegal. Makes sense, doesn't it?
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

ironwolf

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2009, 11:47:42 AM »
  OK Ken, spilll the beans.  Did you forge a barrel or what?

    Kevin :P

Birddog6

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2009, 02:05:06 PM »
Does not MagnaFlux show cracks on the exterior of metal ? but not what is actually inside the metal ?  It will check for surface cracks & voids.

Thus you could magnaflux a piece of steel & it could still have a void in the metal.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2009, 03:59:20 PM »
Thankfully  here in the UK we do not have that problem the barrels are submitted to  the proof house  by a RFD holder  for proof ,if passed the barrels are stamped up by the proof house,these proof marks are required by law to say the gun is safe to shoot.
Feltwad

Offline Ken G

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2009, 04:32:24 PM »
Thanks for the ideas and comments.   Firecrackers is one thing we have plenty of here in TN.  I also had one member contact me off board and make a most generous offer to mail me some cannon fuse.   This gives me several options for this time and in the future.

Ironwolf,
This is one of last hand forged barrels that Steve Bookout made before he retired. 
Ken
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 05:08:14 PM by Ken Guy »
Failure only comes when you stop trying.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2009, 04:46:07 PM »
Magnetic particle testing shows cracks both on the surface and deep in the steel. It does only work on magnetic materials. I was in error using the tradename "Magnaflux", thinking it only applied to magnetic particle inspection.

Just note that Brownells has a "magnaflux" kit that is strictly for finding surface cracks. l would call it dye penetrant inspection, useful for any metal. But, indeed, for surface cracks anyway.

Metallurgically speaking, the worst thing to have in a barrel is a longitudinal crack or seam. Nevertheless, the most likely cause of a black powder barrel failing is the same as it has been for hundreds of years, and that is not seating the ball firmly on the powder. The air gap causes pressure waves to add up enough to burst or at least "ring" the barrel. I.e., local pressures well in excess of 60,000 psi.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Barrel Proofing
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2009, 09:09:03 PM »
JC Kelly,

Short-started projectiles and pressure waves and burst barrels.

Blasphemer!!

Boy did your posting bring back memories.  Just went through the papers the other day to see if I wanted to keep them or heave them.

Bill K.