Welding discussion

[Acer Saccharum]

Now that I'm deep in polishing my lock, I find little spots here and there I'd like to build up. A casting flaw, and incomplete fill, a bubble; all of these are annoying. Suppose I wanted to build up the height on a fence? or weld a bead around the hole in the cock to strengthen, and oh, a million other uses.

None of this welding would require a big amperage machine; but am I talking TIG, or wire feed? I have a gas torch, and use it fearleesly, but am less than satisfied with the precision. I am looking for something better, maybe something to fill in my engraving mistakes.......I mean unintentional voids in the metal.

[rick landes]

I would do most of these with a TIG unit as the heat control is better (less heat means generally speaking less disruption to the surrounding metal). I feel it gives a cleaner weld with less chance of out gassing and the formation of a new void where you sought to fill the old...

TIG can be nice to point heat a stubborn stud head or sight to facilitate removal.

The gas used , %, etc in the created atmosphere is key to a good clean weld, too.

I am concerned with void filling that the base metal may not match the filler rod and the resulting browning, blue what have you will take differently.

[Acer Saccharum]

The heat of the TIG can burn out some elements of the filler or base metal, say if you are trying to TIG brass, the zinc burns off, leaving a higher copper content (reddish color) at the weld. So TIG is not recommended for brass for that reason, plus zinc fumes are toxic.

I am mostly thinking of steel or iron, say for restoration work, like lock conversions, barrel stretching, making something different out of existing castings, etc.

The heat of the TIG can alter alloys, I imagine, where they won't color like the original material.

Cody uses a wire welder, I think, with great results. A buddy of mine recently used a TIG on a barrel, where once I worked the weld down, there was NO drawing of material from the original barrel. I liked that very much.

[scott]

 when TIG welding small areas/parts it is important to have high frequency arc start and a rheostat foot pedal.This is what is needed to do precision work.The cheaper machines don't usually come with these.The measure of a good TIG machine is arc stability at low amperages,like 10-50 amps or so.Buy a good quality machine from one of the major manufacturers like Miller or Lincoln,you'll be glad you spent the extra $.(remember,a TIG machine is also a stick machine as well).
          Scott

[Acer Saccharum]

Scott, there are water cooled and air cooled machines. My buddy told me get the water cooled, because the air cooled torch is cooled by argon, which is pricey. I beg you to correct me if I am not presenting this information correctly.

I imagine we're talking $3 to $5 K for a perfect rig.

[jerrywh]

The best machine you can get for gun work is a Linciln square wave 180.  They have a high frequency starter and will either tig or stick weld. They run arounds $1800.00 You will abdsolutely love it.
   For the little pit marks in a lock it is best to put in iron inlays. Yuo can even build up a fence that way.
 I keep telling people this but it doesn't seem to get thru.
 For the pits , just drill a small hole [.020 or whatever] put a piece of iron wire down in the hole endo. cut it off with some fingernail clippers and hammer it in. Flush it off and it will never show.
  Try it you will feel like a genious when you are done.   NO CHARGE.
 PS-- all tig machines require argon. Forget the water cooled machine. You don't need one that big.

[David Rase]

Tom,  As like Cody, I to do all my steel weld repair with a mig machine.  Why, because that is what I have.  It is what I used on my Davis Tulle lock to weld up the tumbler hole in the Chambers cock I installed and also to fill up the frizzen spring pin hole in the lock plate so I could use the Davis early English frizzen spring.  Would I like to have a tig machine, you bet, but then I would have to learn to weld.  Seriously, just about anybody can learn to mig weld after a couple of hours, tig needs skilled hands to do it right.  There is a lot of hand eye coordination needed to tig weld.  Ask me how I know.  The biggest draw back to mig welding locks, trigger guards and other like work is that there is much more weld removal dueo to less control.  I gues if I wasn't so cheep I would buy a roll of .025 wire for my mig but since I still have better then 2/3 of a 40 lb spool of .035 I will just have to keep cleaning up the excess weld with more filing.
DMR

[Acer Saccharum]

Iron inlays just haven't entered my vocabulary. I even did an iron inlay at your place, Jerry. Then I forgot. Oi! The students you have to deal with these days!

Yes, I will be doing occasional welding, so as long as I can get the control I want with an air cooled, that would be the way to go.

[davec2]

Acer,

I do a lot of TIG welding in my aerospace work.  I have a 300 amp Miller machine - 30 years old now and still working fine.  This machine is water cooled (which I highly recommend), but you will still need the argon or helium (or a mix of the two) anyway as it provides the shielding gas for the weld.  The water cooling part just recirculates water through the torch to allow you to weld at much higher amperages without over heating the torch.  You might think that you won't ever need 300 amps of welding current and, on something like most gun parts, you would be correct.  However, I find that in making tooling (like the hydraulic press I posted) the extra capability is very handy.  If you make anything in the way of tooling or equipment out of aluminum, it will take much higher current levels to weld the same thickness of material because the thermal conductivity of the aluminum is so high.  I recommend the water cooled machine.  You can always do small jobs on a large machine, but it is usually not possible to do large jobs with small machines.  I always get the biggest machine I can afford or find.

I also do a lot of TIG brazing.  You can feather the arc and use it like a regular torch to very quickly heat the parts you want to join and braze them using regular brazing material.  You won't burn out any of the parent metal alloying materials and can match any metal color you want with the appropriate brazing material.  You can join almost any metal to any other metal by this method.  The TIG arc is about 11,000 degrees F - about twice the temperature of an oxy / gas torch.  This allows heat to be rapidly applied just where you need it without heat damaging surrounding areas.  I have used TIG to just quickly heat a broken carbon steel tap down in a hole.  This anneals the tap and will allow it to be drilled out easily.

As far as the skill required to TIG well, I find that it is much easier than torch welding because the foot pedal amperage control gives you the ability to control the heat input to the work much more easily than you can using a gas torch.  If you can torch weld, you can TIG even better.  When I teach someone how to TIG weld, I start them with a gas torch first to learn the skill of manipulating the torch with one hand and the filler rod with the other.  Then, when I switch them over to TIG, it is just much easier to do an excellent weld because of the foot control of the current.  The gas shielding also leaves a weld bead with no slag or oxidation.

After having studied under Jerry H, I fill all pits (and mistakes) with iron wire as he describes.  (I have also repaired a lot of casting porosity in gold and silver castings that way.)  But for many other repairs, fabrications, modifications, etc., I use TIG welding and TIG brazing almost exclusively.  (Although my Miller machine will also do straight and reverse polarity DC and AC stick welding, which comes in handy for a lot of large stuff).

I have several friends who have purchased used TIG welding machines in excellent shape for about a quarter to a third of new prices.  There are plenty around at very reasonable prices.

[Dphariss]

I have a Hobart 'Handler 135" I really like. Just a really nice little welder.
I would advise you not to TIG anything you might need to file. I always find at least a hard spot or 2 that will simply cut grooves in a file. Can't be annealed.

Dan

[davec2]

Dan,

The hard spots are from dipping the tungsten or from improperly grinding the point on it.  If the tungsten is not ground properly and kept clean, small pieces may come of and end up in the weld.  If you don't dip the tungsten and keep it properly shaped, there won't be any hard spots.  I have made thousands of linear feet of TIG weld bead and, as a rule, don't have this problem. If it does happen, the tip of the tungsten should be ground out with a small stone in a handpiece or a Dremel and the spot re-welded.  It does happen, but, if I had to guess, it only occurs about 1% of the time and is easily corrected when it does.

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, I assume you must have good vision when TIG welding, to avoid dipping the tungsten in the puddle.

I have seen the electronic masks that blacken as soon as the arc starts.....I have always had my doubts about those really protecting your eyes. What do you guys use? Magnification lenses?


ps. If you think you might ever get a TIG, save this info on your hard drive.

[scott]

Acer,
 the auto darkening hoods are light years(almost a pun there) ahead of what they used to be but you want to make sure to get one of good quality.The Miller Elite or a good sellstrom will run around 250.00 but worth every penny.I've used both for years now and they are real workhorses.
          scott

[rogero]

Acer the auto darkening helmets ,as Scott said are way ahead and the good quality hoods actually darken faster than the acs is pro
Rogduced

[David Rase]

Scott,  You are so right on the auto darkening hood.  I just purchased a Miller Pro Hobby adjustable shade auto darkening hood a month ago.  Best investment I have made in a long time.  Between that and rebuilding my mig gun to eliminate the porosity problem I was having I don't fret pulling out my welder for those small jobs anymore.  
DMR

[Dphariss]

Dan,

The hard spots are from dipping the tungsten or from improperly grinding the point on it.  If the tungsten is not ground properly and kept clean, small pieces may come of and end up in the weld.  If you don't dip the tungsten and keep it properly shaped, there won't be any hard spots.  I have made thousands of linear feet of TIG weld bead and, as a rule, don't have this problem. If it does happen, the tip of the tungsten should be ground out with a small stone in a handpiece or a Dremel and the spot re-welded.  It does happen, but, if I had to guess, it only occurs about 1% of the time and is easily corrected when it does.

Except for the very tiniest stuff the Hobart does fine and costs a LOT less. No hard spots.

Dan

PS for antique gun parts pre-1870-75 the TIG is better. Once one learns how.

[rick landes]

Acer,
The "good vision" question...
Lens are available with a magnification lens for finer work.
We have purchased the self darkening lens for employees for about 16 years now...they all love them and care for no others. These have setting that allow for lighter or darker shading depending on applications.

We have the honor of being a research and development field tester for Miller Electric. We get to try machines that never make the market and recommend improvements for those that do (or will someday).

I would recommend you take an afternoon and go to a good welding supply company and try out the welders (sizes and types) that maybe of use to you. Take along some mocked up parts and try these machines out first hand.

We have some units that are the size of a lunch box and run on 110 that do amazing work. The new computer boards have changed everything in a very significant way even in the last 5 years.

It will be an eye opening experience.

[Pete Allan]

I have been welding for 60+ years and don't use my TIG very often so I find I need to do a good bit of practice before making a good weld these days. On the other hand I use a Miller MIG machine almost every day and just love it but I also do a lot of filing to go with it. (keeps my arms in good shape) As for auto darkening hoods==BEST THING I EVER BOUGHT.
One of these days I must get some Sil-Bronze rod and try TIG brazing with it. My friends that weld for a living tell me it's the easiest way to braze as the Argon takes the place of the messy flux. Have any of you used this method in place of Silver solder in places where the color doesn't matter?

[David Veith]

David R What was causeing your porosity problem? And how did you fix it.
David Veith

[California Kid]

Pete you old goat, havn't heard from you for a while.
Never tried braising but it should work good. Have to be careful with the heat.
Good to hear from you

[David Rase]

David R What was causeing your porosity problem? And how did you fix it.
David Veith

The main cause was not changing out my consumables on the mig gun.  My nozzle was old and dirty.  A lot of weld splatter had built up on the inside of the nozzle over the years causing the CO2 shield gas to not provide a good blanket.  I had cleaned, filed and maintenanced it all I could.  My contact tip was wore slightly oval which caused start up to be erratic.  Since I don't weld every day it was always "good enough" for the job at hand.
DMR 

[varsity07840]

The best machine you can get for gun work is a Linciln square wave 180.  They have a high frequency starter and will either tig or stick weld. They run arounds $1800.00 You will abdsolutely love it.
   For the little pit marks in a lock it is best to put in iron inlays. Yuo can even build up a fence that way.
 I keep telling people this but it doesn't seem to get thru.
 For the pits , just drill a small hole [.020 or whatever] put a piece of iron wire down in the hole endo. cut it off with some fingernail clippers and hammer it in. Flush it off and it will never show.
  Try it you will feel like a genious when you are done.   NO CHARGE.
 PS-- all tig machines require argon. Forget the water cooled machine. You don't need one that big.

I'm not a welder but I could sure use that iron wire trick on a fw projects. Where do I get it?

Thanks,

Duane

[jerrywh]

 I'll work on an explanation of iron inlay.

[FL-Flintlock]

Y'all will get spoiled with those auto-dark lenses and when you go back to a flip helmet, you'll be seeing the big blue dots more times than you care to! 

If you have a hard time seeing and haven't tried a gold plated lens, you need to try one.  A #11 gold will make give you the same vision quality as a #8 smoke without the added risk of damage to your eyes (no matter if the UV is stopped or not and no matter if you can see the work or not, the amount light coming through lighter lenses will damage your eyes).  Put a clear cover plate over the gold surface to protect it.  I've got an auto-dark and the only applications I find it to be of real value is when you're fixturing, in confined spaces and for general GTAW work.  For delicate GTAW work I very much prefer a #10 gold lens because the reflected light gives far better vision than a lighter shade smoke or auto lens.  Another thing that makes a big difference is reducing the back-light, put a good directional light over the work area that does not get behind the helmet, the less light getting to the back side of the lens, the more that your eyes can pick-up coming through the lens and the less interference/reflection there is.  I know it doesn't really apply here but one of the biggest reasons I don't care much for auto-dark's is the additional weight.  It's not a problem for short periods but when you've got the extra weight hanging off your noggin for 14+ hours at a time, it gets old real quick.  The most comfortable helmet is the Huntsman ultralight, makes huge difference when you're going through a 50# coil of 7/64" NR-311 Ni before eating lunch, loading another coil and getting back at again.

If you need a magnifying lens, spend the extra money and get the precision ground glass lenses instead of the el cheapo plastic $#@*.  The plastic's are a total waste of money and are sure to give you a migraine in no time.  A good quality ground glass mag-lense will run you around $30-$60 depending on the power & focus length but they are worth every penny of it!

Dave Rase,

Change from CO2 to 75/25 shielding gas and you'll eliminate a lot of the spatter issues especially on the work, clean the gun & contact tip well and coat it with anti-spatter dip (warm the nozzle & tip with an LPG torch, dip & sling the excess off, you'll be amazed at how much aggravation a good nozzle dip will save you.
 
Kudos' to Pete Allan for pointing out that running GTAW is not like falling off a bike, you can't put it down for a couple months and jump right back into the game - it takes time to get the "feel" back again. 

To add to what Rick Landes said, I have one of those little lunchbox welders, it's a field test unit from a different company (different shade of blue and no name on it) but uses inverter technology but this one is 240Vac.  I think it weighs around 4 pounds without the leads but the arc is extremely smooth and stable.  20 amp scratch-start GTAW is not only possible, it's smooth, real smooth.   I had a Miller Maxstar 150 too, that's a good little power source too.  If you plan on expanding as time goes on, consider getting an XMT series multi-process power source, even running it on single phase, it's still smooth!

Also keep in mind that you can now get 1/16" diameter SMAW covered electrodes quite easily.  Several companies offer these, avoid middle & far east imports other than from Taiwan & Japan,  European imports are fine too.  These often come in two ver common grades in the big-box and autoparts/hardware stores: E6014 & E6013 avoid both of them, they are not worth using even if you get them for free.  Go to a welding supply shop or look on-line and look for "E70xx" with a reputable brand name on it.

Also, Harris does have filler metals for use with 41xx & 86xx heat-treatable alloys.