HP Bell Rifle attic condition

[DaveM]

I came across this neat rifle recently made by an "H.P. Bell" and thought I would share some photos.   If anyone has knowledge of this maker I'd appreciate input.  Appears to be entirely original and in attic untouched / uncleaned condition.  The ramrod also appears to be original.  The wood is in excellent condition and is tiger maple with incised carvings.  The iron parts such as barrel and lock have a light coat of rust.  Is cleaning off the rust coat recommended and if so, how?  I opened the patchbox and it even appears to have an original greasy patch cloth still in it (see photo).  It is a rifled 37-1/2 inch barrel roughly 40 cal. and the octagonal barrel is roughly 15/16-inch outside flat to flat.  The barrel is heavy and I suppose it could possibly be a bench rifle but overall it does not seem quite big or bulky as those were.  Also I never heard of a percussion bench rifle before.  Another unusual feature is that the foresight has a tiny name inscribed on the egde and appears to be Leman.  Thanks for any thoughts.

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[doug]

     I don't think the barrel is unusually heavy for a gun of its age.  Would go with a hunting rifle rather than a bench rifle.

cheers Doug

[Curt J]

Percussion bench rifles are not at all uncommon, but this isn't one of them. I'd say it's definitely a hunting rifle. The only possible match I can find is Hilliard Bell, who is listed in John Bivins' book "Longrifles of North Carolina" as having been listed in an 1866 state directory as a gunsmith in Raliegh, Wake County, North Carolina. This rifle seems to be of about the right era. Do you know where it came from? A front sight marked "Leman" seems plausible, since Leman supplied parts to the gunsmith's trade for many years.

[rcall]

 ???wouldn't you like to be the fly in the patchbox and know all the hunts and adventures this gun had?

[DaveM]

Curt, the person I obtained this from had it a short time and the person he obtained it from said it came out of an old collection which I took to mean local (to PA) from an old gentleman that passed.  I wish I knew more.  Thanks for the lead on Hilliard, I'll have to look into that angle.

Dave

[Curt J]

I just checked the 1870 census and found Hilliard Bell, listed as a gunsmith in Raleigh. He was 33 years old, born in NC. He owned real estate valued at $500; personal estate valued at $200. His wife Nancy, was 26, also born in NC. Their four sons, Charles, age 6; Rufus, age 4; Haywood, age 2; and Frank, age 9/12, were all born in NC.

I'm not sure he's your man, but he's the only one with the "H" initial I've found so far.

[DaveM]

Curt, this could be the guy but seems a bit late to me if he was only 33 in 1870.  Could be, as the styles probably were not much different throughout the percussion period.

The funny thing to me is that I am almost positive that I saw another gun in the not too distant past with this same name on the barrel because it rung a bell for me when I saw it.  I'm trying to remember where.   

[Tanselman]

While perhaps used elsewhere, the trident or shield shaped "tear drop" at the rear of the side facings is seen on  the work of several NC gunmakers. The very fine Nathaniel Vogler rifle had this detail, and the fine guns by Isaac Ribelin/Rivlin or Towan County, and John Eagle of Rowan County, also used a very similar detail. Shelby Gallien

[Curt J]

You might be surprised how many early-looking guns were made in the 1870's and 1880's. Some makers never made anything but fullstocks. Fullstocks were usually cheaper than halfstocks, believe it or not.

[Mike R]

Don't know about Bell, but I question whether the rod is original--and is that a brass cartridge on the rod tip?  The "patchbox" would be a "capbox" most likely and the cloth may have been to cushion loose caps? 

[T*O*F]

I don't think it's an "attic condition" gun either.  Your pictures show numerous repairs which are of some type of filler material, which has chipped out in some locations.  They may have been filled with shellac stick melted into the flaw.  At any rate, it is my opinion that someone tried to repair it.

[DaveM]

Thanks for all of your thoughts and these are helpful.  Mike I think you are correct on the ramrod not being original as I would assume it would not normally extend beyond the muzzle. 

[Jerry V Lape]

Is the buttstock shape common to the Carolina area? 

[mbriggs]

Sorry Guys, but the Roman Nose on the stock architecture and the short one screw barrel tang strongly indicate to me that this rifle was not made in North Carolina.  I thought rifles with that Roman Nose were made in Western Pennsylvania and Ohio?

Michael Briggs

[keweenaw]

Attic condition doesn't mean never repaired.  Those fills could have been put in there ages ago. 

Tom

[nord]

Nobody can really lay claim to the Roman nose. The style probably started by varying degrees in the Allentown/Reading area. It then became popular in what we consider the Upper Susquehanna area. So much so that we almost assume an U/Susqe gun when we first see one with the nose.

What many fail to consider is that by 1840 the railroads and canals allowed "easy" travel almost anywhere east of the Mississippi. Many of these gunmakers either developed wanderlust, or migrated with those that needed their products.

This is the very reason we're seeing many Illinois guns made in the PA/Kentucky tradition. Maybe made in Illinois, but by Pennsylvania makers.

You are cordially invited to submit your rifle to our library. We have a committee of experts who will have a look at your gun and offer up what information as might be available.

[Curt J]

To further muddy the waters....there was a Hanford P. Bell, who was making percussion rifles in Cambridge, Guernsey County, Ohio, from the 1930' through the 1950's. Sounds like he marked his rifles with an etched "H P Bell" signature. See: "Ohio Gunsmiths and Allied Tradesmen", Volume II, page 36.

A rifle made and used in the 1930's (using old parts..... all that was available back then), then stored away and neglected.....could look pretty old by now.