Author Topic: Graver Sharpening Template Question  (Read 16458 times)

Offline QuanLoi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Graver Sharpening Template Question
« on: June 11, 2013, 12:44:34 AM »
Based on previous posts in this forum, it seems that the Lindsey sharpening system would be, for me (a novice), the one to use.  Visiting the Lindsey website, there are many different templates and I'm a bit confused as to which template to use for chasing a graver with a hammer.  Also, what would be the recommendation as far as graver blanks and how many.  I've never tried this aspect of gun building and I look forward to learning something new.

Thanks in advance...

Decker
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 01:03:55 AM by QuanLoi »

Offline Ron Scott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1046
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 12:49:37 AM »
Most of my students have found the 96 degree template to be their first choice of the offerings.  I think that the HSS  engraver blanks would be a good choice.

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 02:11:27 AM »
Over the years, I've ended up with a 96, 116, and a 70.

The 96 degree is the easiest for me to use. I just can't seem to get as consistent a line thickness with the 116.  The 70 is great for fine shading lines, but the 96 will work for those too if you use a light touch with it.

Remember that the templates need to be used with a stone that is 1/2 inch thick. Lindsay's diamond "stones" that he sells work great.  I've used mine for several years and they are still going strong.

DFHicks

  • Guest
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 04:02:26 AM »
I have the Lindsay system and it is the only way I can sharpen gravers well consistently.  I have the 116 degree template and thought it was for push or hand engraving.  So I don't do the under belly relief and wind up with a 90 degree graver.  I am still practicing and learning and hope to be able to engrave a patchbox eventually.  But the 96 degree template is news to me.  Is it better for hammer engraving than a 90 degree?
Thanks _ DF

rwalt

  • Guest
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 09:19:03 AM »
Hi
I have always wanted to try engraving but I don't own any gravers or know anything about it. Was thinking about buying some from the GRS web site, I see they sell kits of different kinds of gravers and sizes. What sizes and type would I need to do most engraving on a muzzle loader ? Do you sharpen them all the same way? Will the 96 deg template work on say a knife and a square or flat graver, or do you have to buy different templates? Sorry for the dumb questions, but I was told the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
Roger

Thom

  • Guest
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 09:29:34 AM »
"Questions are not stupid. Answers are stupid"
Quote: Ancient Indian yogi

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 02:16:30 PM »


 the first  template i bought was his 116 deg , UPP and the 96 deg detail point
 I have a some of the other plates that Ray Cover  and Carl Bleile designed as well .
 But I think  past  dedicated  plates for specific types of engraving . I use the 110 deg the most .
I also have a full set of Steve’s sharpening stones and would agree that they work very well and last a long time   

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 02:31:19 PM »
There are much better folks to answer these questions than me, but heck, this is the internet so I'll give it a shot!! ;D

I'd start out with square gravers, made out 3/32 inch square stock. There are lots of handles, etc that are made for these types of gravers. You can make your own out of W-1 3/32 stock from McMaster-Carr, but buying some pre-made might be a good idea to get you started.

The Lindsay system is designed to work with the 3/32 inch gravers.

You can do everything you need on a basic longrifle with these gravers.

I use a GRS System 3 air powered engraver that I got really cheap from a neighbor. I am not sure which Lindsay shape would work best with the chasing hammer. The 116 is supposed to be the "universal" point, but I have never found it as easy to work with as the 96 for some reason.

Hopefully kutter will see this thread and respond too.

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2013, 05:08:46 AM »
I had to go and look up the Lindsay templates to see what they looked like and how they're used.
Remarkably simple and if you can use them to get the edge you need, get it quickly and repeatedly,,then it's on big obstacle in engraving you've overcome.

I use a power hone set up and have since I was forced to go to carbide bits about 20yrs ago.
Cutting Winchester 21's made that choice for me and sharpening those by hand and eye like I had always done before w/the HS tools just wasn't going to make it.

Many engravers have a tool face angle for each scroll type they cut. Others again for tools used for shading, inlay work and on.
I keep it simple and use pretty much one tool for everything. A 'V' point I call it, others call it a square bit.
Other than that, a couple of 'flats', some liners to use when needed and that's about it for gravers. Though the bench is full of bits and blades that you accumulate over the years, most make good museum props, some are specialty cutters only like bent shaft gravers for engraving inside a ring and so forth.

Unless the steel says otherwise,,I use a 45* face angle for everything.

I use 3/32 square bits to start. Gone back to HS bits too. I rarely use carbide anymore.
I put the bit in the hone so it lays flat on the grit wheel on one of it's 'flats',,raise it about 5*, maybe a bit more.
Then I turn the bit in the holder 30* and grind that side down and back for about and inch or so.
Do the same to the adjoining flat.
Now you have a 120* included angle point w/ 5* (or so) lift.

I go back and raise the lift to 15*
Turn the bit in the holder to half way between 30 & 35* (I have a little punch mark in the dial to show me where to set it. It's no more precise than that).
Grind back each flat once again about half the distance of the initial grind.

With the bit still set at that 30+* setting,,raise the lift to 20* and put a tiny heal on each flat. I do that w/o even turning the motor of the hone on. Just lightly drag the bit accross the hone for an educated distance.

There's your point.

I cut scroll, do shading, cut lines and figures to be inlayed, do details in figures, lettering,,all with the same tool.
I'd guess it ends up being around a 110* tool,,something in that region.
Grind off the excess on the top to take away bulk material from the bit. It makes focusing on the point easier. You can slim up the sides too. I do it free hand and it shows!, But it's the tiny point that counts.
Some people like cutting w/a smaller angle point, some use the larger ones. Try a few different ones and there'll be one or two that feel more comfortable than others.
The narrower ones I have a tendency to dig in with too much.

From what I can see, it's probably a lot like Lindsays point construction. The double grind at the back gives you plenty of lift for working room and it keeps the heal of the tool out of the work. Especially noticable at the turns when those jagged saw tooth spurs can show up in the work from the heal of the tool dragging it's way around the cut.

For a tougher point you can blunt the tip by turning the tool upright to just shy of 90* with the sharpening surface and on a very hard polishing stone or diamond hone,,drag the point backwards to take the tip off.
You should not be able to see the missing tip w/o magnification,,only the reflection of bright light off of the surface like a dull knife edge.
The fragile tip is missing but it will still cut extremely well and go thru tough alloys w/o fracturing with every 10th hammer strike.  I never wanted to be a full time tool sharpener and so I've always found ways to elliminate the tedious exercise when ever I could.
You don't get paid for that anyway.

It will loose it's nice grabbing touch if used for delicate work like shading, but you'll hardly notice it with a hammer other than you're not resharpening all the time.
Increasing the face angle will toughen up the point also.

Offline Ky-Flinter

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7500
  • Born in Kentucke, just 250 years late
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2013, 05:29:53 AM »
Quote
The Lindsey system is designed to work with the 3/32 inch gravers.

It's true that 3/32 is the standard collet size that comes with Lindsey's sharpening templates, but 3/32 bits can be pricey and hard to find.  When you order, you can request a 1/8" collet instead.  You can buy 1/8 HSS lathe bits at any machine tool supply house, and at a lower price.

-Ron
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:30:38 AM by Ky-Flinter »
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline QuanLoi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2013, 05:34:30 AM »
Thanks for all your posts...  Kutter, I don't think I have enough life left in me to know all that you know but I think I'm going to enjoy learning this new skill.  The mental stimulation associated with building my last gun was gratifying in itself... but now that the gun is finished, learning how to engrave it will just extend that enjoyment and I look forward to it.

Thanks again

Decker
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 05:41:33 AM by QuanLoi »

Offline QuanLoi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2013, 05:40:32 AM »
Ron,

Can a 3/32" bit be used in a 1/8" collet or does the size of the collet have to match the bit?

Decker

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2013, 01:51:17 PM »
Some collets have a bit of latitude for sizes "not quite right".
The only way to find out is to try it and see.

Bob Roller

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2013, 02:08:20 PM »
 that’s the thing I like with the Lindsay templates , Kutter .
  No setting an angle rolling the  dial ……..
 Its all right there . Simply insert your  graver  into the template culet, slide on the length gage and tighten the wing nut  and your ready to go. Once one angle is  ground , roll it to the next  flat side of the template and  grind that
 The draw back is its not easy to change angles .  It can be done if you  change the length the  graver sticks out of the template ,  but past that no real need .

 They even work with a power hone . You just have to set  your platform so that the head of the hone is  up to the correct height .
 Myself , I like them so much I no longer have a GRS fixture   

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 715
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2013, 11:02:52 PM »
Those Lindsay templates are simple and effective  from the looks of them.
As far as changing angles,,I wouldn't be concerned with that. The template gives you a good cutting tool,,why go off experimenting with other angles. Somebody already did that and settled on what the template is set for.
Spend your time engraving, someone else has taken most of the  frustration of learning to sharpen the tools by offering up the templates and other sharpening systems.

The one thing I don't care for is that you must maintain the length of the tool bit that extends from the template so the angle is maintained in sharpening each time.
It does make the tool consistantly the same length and some engravers like and even demand that.
I have a habit of using them down to a nub.

 Even then I save the little left overs for 'something'. I have used them for cutting tool inserts in tools I've made like rim recess cutters and the like.

The Power Hone lets you keep the angles as you continually sharpen the bit,, getting shorter and shorter.
It's probably not an issue to anyone other than someone that engraves 8 to 12 hrs a day.
Others wonder if they'll ever wear a bit out in normal use.

I wish the templates had been around back when I tried to get some results using a Crocker Graver Sharpener. Still have it around somewhere. Should have been called a Crock instead.
I found it was easier to sharpen by hand guided by eye than using those things.
But  I wore a groove into quite a few oil stones learning.


Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4477
    • Personal Website
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 11:37:25 PM »
Some have suggested cheaper 1/8" HSS bits.  I prefer the more expensive Glensteel bits from GRS.  They seem to be significantly tougher and in my experience the tips chip much less frequently.  For as much as they cost and as fast as a graver is used, it pays.

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 12:01:08 AM »
Quote
The one thing I don't care for is that you must maintain the length of the tool bit that extends from the template so the angle is maintained in sharpening each time.

 the graver blank slides through the template Kutter . then  you slip on a small tube that acts as a gage that serves to  set the angle  for the template .  that gage is 1 1/4 inchs long  but it also slides up on the   graver holder about 1/4 so it  will sharpen down the graver tell its about 1 inch long .
after that i simply  use  the graver as a square  with a 45 deg face . but really very much shorter then that and you end up with no clearance for the pneumatic hand piece .  you can use them shorter for push or chase though .
As to  changing the angle . that’s  personal preference . Steves templates are set up for the angles  of the engravers that  models his  templates after . that’s why if you look on his page you will see  templates  from different engravers like Phil Coggan,  Carl Bleile and Mike Dubber . Those  templates are for the angles and shapes they like .

 It doesn’t mean you cant change the angle  to something you like . All one has to do is  set the graver into the template either deeper or longer  and you get the same  point facets but a different face angle .
 but again thats if someone wanted to , myself , i see no need to unless your wanting a 90 deg face  and his template is set for a 116 deg face

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2013, 12:27:16 AM »
Quote
Can a 3/32" bit be used in a 1/8" collet or does the size of the collet have to match the bit?
I'd have to look at mine, but I believe the graver is held in the collet with 2 set screws.  Thus, for sharpening purposes the smaller will probably fit into the larger.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2013, 01:07:55 AM »
Needing a device to grind a 45* face for my square gravers I came up with this - works.



dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

wet willy

  • Guest
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2013, 05:11:47 AM »
Having spent three years at watchmaking school at StPaul College in MN, the first year was mostly how to sharpen a graver, and while this may sound like a stupid waste of time, it taught us confidence in holding a tool, and making an appropriate angle cut holding the tool free hand, plus working with magnification on very small parts on a watchmakers lathe.

Lessons learned: a jig will do a better job than any masters free-hand job, and second, carbide (shape the tip on a green wheel), is great, but it is brittle and the tip can fracture, and HSS can do a great job on steel, much less softer material like brass.

So, if you want to engrave a brass plate, get a jig, use HSS, and practice!
Within reason, you can file off your mistakes and try again.

rwalt

  • Guest
Re: Graver Sharpening Template Question
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2013, 07:10:29 AM »
Thanks to all. Lots of info. You guys saved me some $$$$ by not buying a lot of different types of gravers I wouldn't have a need for. If you want to see the templates in action there is a video on utube.
Thanks again, Roger