Author Topic: A small pistol  (Read 7091 times)

Offline JTR

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A small pistol
« on: July 02, 2013, 06:04:31 AM »
I’m a bit stumped, and looking for some help on this small pistol.

I bought it at the KRA meeting (since I couldn’t afford much more  ;D  ) and yes, it’s missing the lock.

The guy I bought it from is pretty confident the pistol was made in Baltimore, 1775/1790-ish. The wood looks like walnut and all the furniture is iron.

The barrel is a nice cannon barrel shape, and is about 4 ¼” long and .62 caliber smoothbore. There’s some sparse engraving on the barrel that outlines the rear section from the wedding rings back to the forward part of the tang.
 
The butt cap is held on with just a screw, and there is some simple silver wire inlay around the rear of the barrel tang.

The rear finale of the side plate looks to me like an acorn, as does the finale on the forward part of the trigger guard.

The ramrod entry pipe and the tiny ramrod pipe are made in one piece, with the center filed away to make them appear to be two separate pieces. I have another pistol, likely made in Lehigh Co. that has the same sort of ramrod pipe arrangement.

One of the pictures shows the markings on the bottom of the barrel. On one side, they’re obliterated and I can only make out a few letters. On the other side are the letters, stamped in capitals, FERT, and right below that, DOUBLE. At least that’s what it looks like, but none the less, doesn’t mean anything to me.

There’s no proof marks, no broad arrows, nothing to pin it to a euro country, so maybe it was made in Baltimore.

What do you guys think? American, foreign, does anything about it ring a bell with anyone?

Thanks for any suggestions!

And, If anyone has a flintlock, with a lock plate about 3 ¼” long I’d be interested in it!

John
























John Robbins

Offline Fullstock longrifle

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 03:49:56 PM »
It was good seeing you at the show John, and yes, I saw that pistol at the show as well, and the owner also told me that he thought it was possibly made in Baltimore. The maker everyone wants to attribute this type of pistol to is Halbach from Baltimore, his pistols almost always have a primitive federal eagle on the buttcap and he also used European parts. His locks are usually marked Halbach or Halbach and Sons, but of course the lock on yours is missing.

Not sure what the markings on the barrel are, but my gut tell me that this pistol was made in Europe (possibly France) and not Baltimore or anywhere else in the U.S.  I'll be interested to hear what the others have to say.

Here's a link to information about Halbach pistols.

http://books.google.com/books?id=7pyVTm2PibUC&pg=PA343&lpg=PA343&dq=halbach+and+son+pistol&source=bl&ots=c9Et9jL13A&sig=B8VQt88I5il_9ilCoh5e9TMTQJk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jtDSUZqbH8fh4APVs4DAAQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=halbach%20and%20son%20pistol&f=false

Frank
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 04:43:17 AM by Fullstock longrifle »

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 06:17:56 PM »
 The styling of this pistol looks French to me. The lock would have given us more insight I'm sure.

                    Hungry Horse

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 07:42:06 PM »
I would also bet that the pistol was made in France - The lock would have been a deciding factor, but all the other attributes about it tell me French.  Here are some photos of similar French pistols.  The sideplate is virtually identical, and the triggerguard is very similar to the last pistol here.  The only thing that isn't quite as French to me is the symmetrical wire inlay around the tang, but it's not way out of line either.  Very nice pistol in great shape regardless, has a better flow to it than the ones posted below.  Best,
-Eric










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Offline T*O*F

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 09:36:13 PM »
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with everyone.  I think it is decidely English because of all the acorn finials on everything and the design of the trigger guard itself.  I think a French pistol would be more floral.   AAMOF, I think I have a copy of that guard.
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Offline JTR

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 10:58:00 PM »
It sure looks like a close match to the pictures that Eric posted.

Wouldn't both French or English made pistols have proof marks on the barrel though?

Thanks so far!
John
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 11:33:34 PM »
I have an earlier French pistol signed by the maker (from St. Etienne), but with no proofs and similar font stamped words/letters on the underside.  I see what TOF is saying about the acorns, but I've seen a lot of French pistols with similar finials - it wasn't strictly an English icon (take a look in The Rifle Shoppe's catalog at their French stuff for a bunch of acorns and pineapples as well).  Though I admit the wire inlay looks more English, I still think the pistol is of French origin.  Best,
-Eric
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2013, 01:47:28 AM »
Dont know where it was stocked but there is nothing English at all in that piece. Totally Frenchy.  I doubt it was made here. Most likely a true French piece.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 01:53:33 AM by James Rogers »

Offline Steve Collward

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2013, 07:57:00 PM »
JTR,
  I too, believe your pistol is French.  Attached are some photos of a French pistol with similar features (ie, trigger guard, side plate).
Like yours, the ram rod entry pipe and little pipe is one piece. Hope this is of some help and a lock turns up for you.
 -Steve






eddillon

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 12:22:21 AM »
Compare sideplates.  Mine is on a circa 1820 small french boys half stock fowler.  Identical pattern to the last French pistol photo.


Offline JTR

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 03:12:42 AM »
Well thank you guys, and I agree, French it is!

Although I’ll hold TOF’s opinion as a possible exception.  ;D

I appreciate all the comments and pictures as it really clarifies things quite nicely. Now, I just need to find a lock (good luck), or more likely make one some day.

John
John Robbins

Offline alex e.

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 06:55:30 AM »
i'd say  French also, but the triggerguard screams English to me.
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline alex e.

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 02:23:38 PM »
I' think i might recant my  previous post.I was loooking at vaious pictures in various books last night.

i am now leaning toward an American made gun. I saw  quite a few pistols with mixed euro. hardware Also the  'pointed' breech tang  does not  look right to me, French guns i am familiar with seem to be more rounded on the  pointed end

just my thoughts.FWIW
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 04:47:23 PM »
What is exactly English about that TG? Looks very much of French design to me.
Whereever it may have been put together all I see is heavy direct French influence.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 06:44:06 PM »
Froggy
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 09:42:48 PM »
Maybe John Donelson of Donelson Custom Muzzleloaders could help you with the lock?
http://www.donelsoncustommuzzleloaders.com/
tca
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Offline JTR

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Re: A small pistol
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2013, 03:28:50 AM »
Thanks Tim
That might well answer the missing lock problem!
It would be nice to find an original, but I expect the chance of that to be between slim and none.
I appreciate you posting the link!
John
John Robbins