Hawk, Deemer, or someone else?

[JTR]

I'm posting these pictures for a shy friend that would like to remain anonymous.

With the JD rifle having been attributed to Jacob Deemer, my friend would like to know what you guys think of this one, and if anyone can think of a possible maker. Obviously it would likely be someone close to Hawks work, but not Hawk himself, as a lot of the parts look like they're right out of Nicolas Hawks shop!

This is a very small rifle, maybe a boys or possibly a woman's rifle as the overall length is only 43 inches long. The barrel is 28 inches long with a 12 inch trigger pull and is still in original flint condition.  

[Shreckmeister]

Why not Hawk himself?  What rules that out?

[Bob Roller]

I don't know who made it but it is a marvelous relic and the condition is
fine.Inletting of the lock is still tight and that is a minor miracle.

Bob Roller

[JTR]

Rob,
Personally I'd think the engraving would eliminate Hawk as the maker.
Sorry I missed meeting you at the KRA.
John

[Majorjoel]

After studying the JD rifle pictures sent to me from anonymous, I would say very very high probability(99% sure) that your friends rifle was made by J.D.   aka Jacob Deemer.  The trigger is also a dead nuts copy of the trigger on my J.D piece.  The box, the comb inlay, toe plate, and the engraving match closely with anonymous rifle.  This additional rifle puts the total # of JD rifles to 5 that I have encountered since acquiring my longrifle.  That number includes the one pictured in the red patchbox book. I have been told about another from another collector friend but have not yet seen pictures. I know that finding information about Nicholas Hawk is even quite scarce, so too an apprentice harder still.  Thank you John for aiding your shy friend with this very sweet little rifle! Please tell him thank you, from me!    Joel

[JTR]

Joel, I was hoping you would take a close look here!
I've always thought, though no doubt some might disagree, that engraving style, as well as the fine details, could be a good indicator of the maker if it can be matched up to a known maker gun. Together with some other strong indicators could lead to a good attribution.
Do you think there's any chance Mr. Hilberg might consent to posting pictures of his rifle here? Or maybe sending them to the owner of this rifle?
Mr. Shy has already seen the comments here and appreciates the help!
It would be cool to get all the Deemer's together and put them in the library here!
John 

[Majorjoel]

I will contact anonymous and see if he'd be interested in joining this forum.  Perhaps he'll give permission for me to share photo's.  It sure would be a fine addition to the ALR museum to get the group of J.D. rifles up on display there!

[Shreckmeister]

John,  regret that I missed the opportunity to chat as well. Regarding the quality of engraving I would suggest that if engraving has shared elements and style I would not rule a gun out on that basis. Having seen about 50 shreckengost rifles to date that were produced over his 50 year documented career I've found his early rifles to share elements of engraving that over time evolved to be much finer and more artistic as well as incorporating more abilities like depth and shading.  Like anything you do the more experience you get the better you become.

[Majorjoel]

And besides, I would probably like a rifle better, attributed to Nicholas Hawk rather than one of his apprentices! But to know the truth has always been my objective.

[Buck]

Looks like a Peter Kuntz to me. It would be nice to hear Jim's opinion.
Buck

[mr. no gold]

ROTH?