New old topic--patch lube

[Natureboy]

  I've read every page of the forum about black powder shooting, and for pre-made patch lubes it seems to come down to Shenandoah Valley, Hoppe's #9+, and Mr. Flintlock.  Shenandoah and Mr. Flintlock are said to be the same as the old tried and true Lehigh Valley Lube, and lots of shooters seem to like Hoppe's #9+.  I can't find Hoppe's here in Portland OR, but a local supplier has Shenandoah.  This seems to be an endless discussion, with lots of preferences for home-made and commercial, and of course spit.  I find that my spit dries up with I see the Redcoats coming with their bayonets.  I have some Ox-Yoke, but I've read some negative comments about that equal to the number of positives.  So are the three I mentioned equally effective, or is one superior?  I have a new .54 long rifle and I'm working up the perfect patch and lube combination.  I want to try linen cut at the muzzle, and I'm still searching for the best lube.  Who has tried them all with what results?  Such a fun quandary.

[hanshi]

There's probably not a great deal of difference with the top lubes; grease lubes are another story as they require frequent swabbing.  Another top lube is spit but it will dry pretty fast so can't be left in a bore more than just a while.  Each lube has its champion so whatever works for you sounds good to me.

[moleeyes36]

Natureboy,

When Lehigh Valley lube went off the market, and my horded supply was used up, I tried Shenandoah Valley and my experience with it is that has a tendency to form large white flakes in the bottom of the bottle, which Lehigh Valley never did.  That tells me that the formula is not the same.  Though SV is a good lube, IMHO it doesn't measure up to Lehigh Valley.

When George Sutton came out with Mr. Flintlock's Lube he posted here on the ALR forum that it is the old Lehigh Valley Lube under a different name.  IIRC, that is due to trademark restrictions on the name Lehigh Valley Lube.  George can jump in and correct me it that's wrong.  After the good feed back on it, I ordered a case for a few fellow shooters and myself to try out and use as prizes in shoots.  The response has been all very positive from all who have tried it around here.  I'm going to contact George and order another case in a few days. 

I've never tried Hoppe's lube, but I hear it's pretty good.  However, a couple of the shooters here that used it and tried Mr. Flintlock's Lube switched to Mr. Flintlock's Lube.  But, as you said, there are lots of different preferences for patch lube of every description.  Some use exotic homemade formulas, some simple homemade formulas, some commercial formulas, and some use plain old spit. 

Whatever works best for you is what you should use.  I'll stick to Mr. Flintlock's Lube because it is Lehigh Valley Lube which I always used and loved.

Mole Eyes

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I used to be a spit only shooter, at the range. Recently I've been experimenting with different lubes. For accuracy I have no information. But for ease of use here's what I've found.

Hoppes's 9 plus. is somewhat thick and doesn't permeate the patch very quickly, a drop or two will pretty much sit there till you spread it around or let it soak for several minutes. I also find it very slippery and messy to use, gets all over your hands and rifle. When using it I dab some on several patches at a time and let them soak it up. I seems to dry somewhat slowly and when patches lubed with it are left in a tin the inside of the tin becomes covered with a wax-like coating. I assume that the product separated as it dried. I would feel comfortable using Hoppes 9 plus as a hunting lube with the addition of a felt wad to separate it from the powder charge. I don't think it would dry in the bore. I wouldn't pre-lube too many patches ahead of time because of the separation I mentioned.

Mr. Flintlock lube is somewhat new to me. A bottle was given to me, and I have used it a few times. So far I am very impressed with it. Lay out your patches on the bench and a couple of drops on each soak right into the material. Far less messy and easier to apply than Hoppes. I noticed a much easier loading with the Mr. Flintlock lube over Hoppes and even over spit. This was what sold me.

I think both Hoppes 9 plus and Mr. Flintlock lube provide easier cleaning of the bore after shooting even when not cleaning the bore at the range.

I need to do some testing if either of these products are better than spit when shooting for accuracy. But with my eyes that may be a very subjective test.

I don't believe in swabbing the bore while shooting, unless there is a problem with loading. Both of these products seem to perform better than spit for this.

That's my story, others may have different results. I have no connections to either of these products, and my spit may be different than your spit. 

[Dphariss]

There is no one lube that is best for every use.
For a hard core target use, like string measure matches one lube will be found to shoot best. Usually its something that will not work for hunting or trail walks.
Trail walks and other more casual shooting will likely require a lube that will let the shooter shoot 10-20 shots without wiping.
Hunting requires a lube that will protect the bore and not contaminate the powder charge if left loaded for a considerable period of time.
"Dry" lubes Teflon or WS oil/water mix allowed to "dry" on the patches will shoot through the same hole at 60-100 yards with a good barrel. But requires uniform wiping every shot.
A wet lube, with a high water content will allow shooting a long string without wiping but usually do not shoot as well. But even Neatfoot (now lard oil by industry and Gov't standards) will work if its possible to blow down the barrel between shots or one lives in a high humidity area. In the arid west things are different than in the east or along the coasts. In Iowa when I was a kid fouling would liquify in the pan for example. It just cakes up in Montana unless its raining or snowing.

For hunting something like Neatsfoot, Sperm Whale Oil or tallow works really well and will allow loading followup shots though Sperm Whale is a fairly high friction and may be why it was highly regarded back in the day. Lard oil and tallow are pretty slick. All are none corrosive if made right. At least where I live.
Now if I HAD to use one lube? Probably tallow that I render myself. Sperm Whale Oil mixed with Beeswax as per the 1870s Sharps Rifle Co. Formula with a little extra oil works really well too but I only tried it a little and not much for accuracy testing. But try finding the oil now.

Back farther than I care to think about there were reports of bore damage associated with WS oil water concoctions people were using at the time so I never used them. I think this was the result of trying to clean with the stuff. I ringed a barrel in my youth with spit patches. Nice ring right where the ball was seated. So I am more careful now.
In my experience cleaning is about the same regardless. The water based lubes will leave the bore pretty darned clean but the breech area will have fouling that has to go and this takes water. Though there are people that used various commercial and home made concoctions for this that they think have no water in them or they don't get the fouling out.

Dan

[T*O*F]

When George Sutton came out with Mr. Flintlock's Lube he posted here on the ALR forum that it is the old Lehigh Valley Lube under a different name.

I bought 4 bottles at Friendship from George but he was occupied so I didn't get a chance to talk to him.  I haven't shot any of it but I do still have one bottle of the old, original Lehigh stuff.  I compared the two by odor and taste.  They neither taste nor smell alike which leads me to believe there might be a formula variation.

You might ask how I know how it tastes.  I put a stack of 50 patches in a 2" x 3" Ziploc bag and squirt the lube on the edge of the stack until all are soaked.  Sometimes I don't use them all and they dry out by the next time I go shooting.  I just reactivate them by the spit patch method until they are used up.  BTW, it does taste like $#@* but I can still tell the difference between the two.

[George Sutton]

When I received the formula for Lehigh Valley Lube I learned that one of the original components was no longer on the market.

I did some experimenting and made the same mistake that Shenandoah Valley made and ended up with a product that, over time came out of solution leaving white crystals on the bottom of the bottle.

I contacted the company that made the discontinued product told them what I was doing and they told me there was a company in Canada that made the same product as the discontinued product used in the original formula.

It took me two months to convince them to ship a large quantity to me.

I sent samples of the finished product to guys who were using Lehigh Valley for other purposes. I asked them to find any difference between the two products. They could not tell the difference between the original Lehigh Valley and Mr. Flintlock's.

 Mr. Flintlock's will not disassociate or come out of solution.


Centershot

[Vomitus]

   The last time I bought Lehigh Valley it was 65 US bucks a gallon. I'd like to try this stuff (Mr. Flintlock) but it's pricey getting it to Canada. Guess I'm stuck with milking a moose for the juice!

[Natureboy]

  As sort of an aside to this discussion, I watched a series on PBS about an elite squad of riflemen in the Napoleonic War.  The squad was led by Sharpe, (Sean Bean), and in one scene he trains some FNG regulars how to load and fire their muskets quickly.  His formula was to pour the powder, place the ball, spit on it, stamp the butt on the ground, then fire.  Two thoughts came to me:  one is that they probably had a lot of stocks broken at the wrist, and the other was that, even with smoothbores, fouling might get so thick that the ball would be prevented from reaching the powder, with the result being burst barrels.
   And I figured out why I had so much difficulty milking the moose.  I should have noticed the horns.

[T*O*F]

They could not tell the difference between the original Lehigh Valley and Mr. Flintlock's.

They probably didn't taste it.   

[George Sutton]

T*O*F, first I apologize for not being available to talk with you at Friendship. I was looking foward to meeting you. Maybe next year.

If you develop a taste for Mr. Flintlock's we can crack a half gallon at Friendship and you can have at it. I'll stick to cold Corona.

George

[jamesthomas]

 We ( me an Stuart G.) went shooting yesterday using Hoppes No 9, probably took 30 shots? then the heat drove us off. I did a pre-clean before I left, 3 patches maybe? and just got back to finishing up today. It took me all of 5 patches till they came out white, nice. I would like to try Mr. Flintlock, think there will be a vendor with it at Davey Crocket Days in August?. I like the Hoppes cause it will not evaporate and will keep the fouling soft and prevent rust if your not able to clean your rifle right away.

[tpr-tru]

Centershot,   reference to reply #6 above,  your lube will not separate.    I purchased two bottles from Greg Dixon at Lewisburg this year.   On display I noted flakes   (looked like small gratings of white wax/Ivory soap)  in the bottom of the bottles.   When I got home I shook the daylights out of the bottles.   The flakes/settlement eventually went back into the solution and has stayed there as of 9:30 this evening.     Do I understand that some of your early mix would separate (like mine) and your newer mix will not separate ? 

[George Sutton]

After realizing that the earlier formula had seperation issues, I tested the new product by leaving bottles on a shelf in my workshop for three months. There was no seperation.

In very cold weather you'll get what looks like clear flakes in the solution. These flakes (I don't know what they are) go back into solution when the bottle returns to a warmer temperature. It is possible that there is a minute amount of water in one of the components. I shot with the solution in this state and saw no change in performance. I also left some in an old barrel with no ill effects.

When I first started with my testing, I left five bottles outside in below zero temperatures, the solution did not freeze. I tried to seperate the flakes when I opened the bottles but there was nothing there.

Centershot

[iloco]

Will there be a vendor at the CLA show that will be selling Mr Flintlock Lube.....?

[jamesthomas]

 Off topic, Centershot, I live down here in South Alabama and just your statement about below zero temps, almost put me into hibernation. I have two steel rods implanted in my back  (Double curve scoliosis) and I can't imagine living in some of the places some of ya'll do on this forum.

[George Sutton]

Charlie Wallingford may have some.

Centershot

[frontier gander]

checked my bottle that I haven't used in close to 2 months, still looks like it did the day I got it. No floaters of any kind.

[Dennis Glazener]

Will there be a vendor at the CLA show that will be selling Mr Flintlock Lube.....?

Short answer yes. I saw bottles on at least one table if not more. I think Dave Keck had some on his table.

I saw bottles of Shenandoah Lube as well as a couple of bottles of original Lehigh Valley lube.
Dennis

[C Wallingford]

Charlie Wallingford may have some.

Centershot

I have a few bottles that I will bring along.

[Dennis Glazener]

Will there be a vendor at the CLA show that will be selling Mr Flintlock Lube.....?

Short answer yes. I saw bottles on at least one table if not more. I think Dave Keck had some on his table.

I saw bottles of Shenandoah Lube as well as a couple of bottles of original Lehigh Valley lube.
Dennis

Sorry, you said CLA and I had Dixon's on my brain! My comments were about Dixon's.
Dennis