Becky's lock question

[caliber45]

Gents -- In the process of trying to build a "sorta" French dueling pistol (non-historic) using a Becky's flintlock. To my dismay, I note there's no obvious place to drill a lock bolt hole. My "usual" spot for single lock bolts is just above the mainspring flex position, mid-lock. On the Becky's lock, that would place it about halfway up into the bore! I do note a small detente on the inner lockplate, near the bottom of the plate and just "southeast" of the tumbler's lowest edge,  however. And -- though quite near to the edge of the lockplate -- the location of a bolt there would not appear to interfere with any of the workings of the lock innards. Is this the purpose of that detente??? A "locator" detente? (Please, no advice to use a different lock; the Becky's is the only one small enough to fit my needs here.) Tks! -- paulallen, greencastle, IN.

[rich pierce]

Most all builders place the rear lock bolt in the bolster behind the pan and it is located behind the screw that holds the pan in place.  I have not seen otherwise.

[tallbear]

I do as Rich has suggested rear lock bolt through the bolster(there is plenty of room for the front lock bolt ahead of the mainspring).I also drop down to 6-32 lock bolts on locks this small.

Mitch

[Long John]

I agree with Rich and Mitch; but they both know a lot more than I do about this.  I used that lock once and I used 2 screws one behind the pan and one that came through just forward of the mainspring.  I don't think this lock is intended to be installed with a single screw.

John Cholin

[caliber45]

Thanks for the prompt response, guys. I'll give the bolster location a look-see to determine whether I can avoid the breechplug that way. The front-of-mainspring location could pair with that  for a second bolt, of course, but would have served well as the ONLY bolt. Thanks again! -- paul

[rich pierce]

There's no need to avoid the breech plug lug.  Most of the time the breech plug lug must be notched for the rear lock bolt.  Standard practice.

Note:   The word "lug" was added to this post by a moderator, for clarification  It is NOT recommended to drill into the threaded portion of the barrel and breech plug.  -KyFlinter

[smylee grouch]

How long  is the threaded portion of the breech plug ?

[JDK]

I believe Rich was referring to the breech plug bolster behind the barrel, not through the barrel and the threaded portion of the plug itself.

If your barrel is breeched properly, and the gun laid out correctly, you should have no problem using the lock bolster for the lock nail and avoiding the barrel.  Perhaps your breech plug is too long for this application.

Enjoy, J.D.

[caliber45]

Wooops. Meant to say the in-front-of-mainspring would NOT have served well as the only lock bolt location. My bad. Smylee: Threaded portion is 1/2 inch. Came with the barrel piece, and is in so tight I decided against trying to get it out. Bolster/tang was attached. Rich: The bolt hole will come close to missing the barrel end. I just hate to try to drill against a partial surface; makes the bit want to flex (and sometimes break). AKA: I'm tempted to use a 6/32 bolt, but those tiny taps have a tendency to break on me, no matter how gently I try to use them. I'll probably go 8-32 in the bolster bolt and try a 6-32 on the front-of-mainspring location. Thanks again! -- paul

[rich pierce]

If it seems the bit is going to partially hit the tang/breech lug, I drill till the bit touches metal.  Then I carefully pull the barrel and check where it is hitting on the lug.  If it is going to be partially off the lug, then I leave the barrel out of the stock and finish the drilling for the rear lockbolt.  Then file the needed groove in the rear of the lug.

[caliber45]

Guys -- Brief folo, if anyone's interested. Drilled the lockplate through the bolster, as suggested. It penetrated through the barrel/breechplug about 1/8th inch in front of the end of the barrel. Not a problem, since I don't intend to remove the breechplug anyway. Tapped the lockplate without problems for 8-32. Enlarged the hole through the barrel/breechplug to allow easy penetration by the lockbolt. The lockplate is securely inlet, so one bolt may be enough. If not, I'll work on the front-of-mainspring spot. Thanks again for the advice. -- paul

[frogwalking]

Someone correct me if I am wrong.  The lock bolt does not go through the threaded portion of the breechplug and barrel; it goes through the bolster on the rear of the plug, clear of the barrel.  One of you guys who has great experience needs to comment as to the safety of this situation.  It does not seem like a good thing to me.

[rich pierce]

I was hoping that something was lost in the translation and it was drilled through the lug beneath the tang.  It's never safe to build a gun relying solely on online advice which is not always clear, or right.  Caliber 45, there are books, videos, classes and original and contemporary guns to study before getting the tools out.  In this case (if that is what was done) the placement of the lockbolt through the barrel and breech plug is unorthodox, inconvenient, and somewhat compromises the integrity of the breech plug.  Regardless, the questions asked indicate a lack of knowledge and training.  I'd not advise giving a performance before taking guitar lessons, though nobody would risk getting hurt in that case except their ears.  Same here.  You need to know how it is done and have skills with the tools.

[bedbugbilly]

frogwalking - don't feel bad, I'm a little bewildered by this as well.  I went to TOTW's site and looked at the reverse view of the Becky flintlock lock.  The pan is held on to the lockplate by two screws threaded through from the back side.  However, it appears that there is ample room for a rear bolt in to the area directly behind the rear pan mounting hole to mount the lock in the conventional manner.  It also appears like there would be ample room to place it there if the vent is placed correctly - at the most, the breech plug tang bolster might have to be relieved/grooved a might bit but as already mentioned, that is a common practice.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the OP has drilled through the barrel and the threaded portion of the breech plug to install the lock bolt?  Like you, it has me scratching my head as to why anyone would do that . . . unless I'm misunderstanding what he is saying.  If that is what the OP is saying, then it sounds like the lock bolt is placed somewhere under the pan?

Hopefully the OP will come back and explain?

[Acer Saccharum]

I'd like to see a photo, because it sounds like the bolt goes thru the barrel in the threaded section of the breech.

[kutter]

I read it as it drilled through the portion of the plug you wrap a wrench around, about 1/8" away from the bbl.

No wonder it's so easy to get into trouble on the internet!

[Ky-Flinter]

...... It penetrated through the barrel/breechplug about 1/8th inch in front of the end of the barrel. Not a problem, since I don't intend to remove the breechplug anyway. Tapped the lockplate without problems for 8-32. Enlarged the hole through the barrel/breechplug to allow easy penetration by the lockbolt.

I hope not, but it sure sounds like the hole is thru the threads.  Not good in my humble opinion.

-Ron

[frogwalking]

"Caliber .45" We are not beating on you.  We are concerned about your safety.  We have all made mistakes, some of them dangerous, at least in my case. If you decide to continue with this build, please read all  you can find concerning proof testing, and make sure to proof the barrel and breechplug well.  If we have misunderstood what you have done, let us know, or post a photo, using photobucket.

[caliber45]

Well, guys -- I was beginning to feel a bit beleaguered there, and had decided not to respond/prolong this interchange. But some of you seem genuinely concerned, so:

1. The face of the breechplug determined where the touch hole went. 2. The touch hole determined where the lock went. 3. The bolster (behind the screw) determined where the lock bolt hole went. 4. The lock bolt hole did, indeed, go through the barrel/breechplug threads -- about 1/8th inch into the barrel. Horrors, you say.

My response: I've already mentioned the breechplug (installed by the barrel maker) is so tight I can't (easily, at least) remove it. Drilling a hole through it near the back end of the barrel isn't going to weaken it appreciably. Besides, what could make a VERY snug breechplug any more secure than running a bolt through the back end of it to assure that it ISN'T going to come loose? The bore is .45 caliber. I'm planning to load it with 15, 20 grains of FF black powder, MAX. I realize you helpful folks of the purist persuasion (no sarcasm intended) are horrified that this isn't the way it's "supposed to be done." I don't like it much, myself. But when the situation calls for making do -- in what I consider basically safe fashion -- one makes do.

I came to you asking whether a detente inside the lockplate was a "locator" for a lock bolt. You didn't answer that question, but offered other advice. I -- not blindly, incidentally; I've built more than 30 rifles, all of which function, and safely -- considered the advice, weighed the consequences, and took one suggested solution. I'll shoot the pistol with minimal loads (never anywhere close to heavy), and watch for signs of problems. If there are problems (which I seriously doubt), I'll dismantle the pistol and use the parts for some other project.

I always appreciate the help I get here. I sometimes am slightly irritated by folks being horrified that I don't always do things the "right" way. Won't belabor this further. Thank you all for the advice. As always. -- paul

[rich pierce]

Understood, Paul.  This forum is populated mostly by purists, if purists are those who attempt to do things the way our forefathers decided was right.

For anyone else who is following this thread, you can see there is sometimes a dilemma when using a small lock, in that the breech plug is so long compares tO the lock bolster that it makes it hard to place the rear lockbolt where it belongs.  In such cases, especially in the case of a pistol, one solution is to shorten the breech plug.  Another is to counterbore the face of the breech plug if the style of the gun permits, employing a patent breech.

Other solutions, guys?

[kutter]

One way you can sometimes move the rear bolt back some is by using one of the bridal screws or even the sear spring screw as an anchoring point. Doesn't work with every lock & situation.

The upper bridal screw usually does it and looks the best as it ends up in a traditional looking location on the sideplate.

You have to make a new screw to replace the one in the lock. Make the head of it a little larger in diameter if you can (the sear screw sometimes doesn't have room for this) and with a high head.
(I have to admit I've brazed on a 'new' head to the existing screw to do this after turning the slotted area off.
Much quicker than making a new screw. I repair alot of originals w/ beat up heads and slots this way too)

Drill and tap the new head of the screw for what ever the side lock screw that will be used.
This will be a blind hole, so keep that in mind when making the screw to begin with and how much thread engagement you want

You'll have to put a slot in it also but not very deep so you can use it to assemble the lock to begin with.

Once you've made the new screw and are satisfied with it.,,

Disassemble the lock, replace the lock plate back in the stock and drill a pilot hole for the side plate screw screw using the empty hole in the lock plate as the guide. Drill 'between centers' with the correct location on the side plate side.

Now remove the plate and counter sink the hole for the oversize screw head you just made and drill thru with a correct size drill so your side plate screw slides through.

Re-assemble the lock with the new screw.  Use a dot of LocTite on the threads of that new screw (the kind you can undo w/o using heat).


The rear side plate screw now enters from the left and engages that new screw head to tighten up.
The screw itself is already tightened as needed in the assembly of the lock, so this extra duty doesn't effect the function of the lock. It's just holding the lock assembly in place in the wood.
The LocTite assures that the screw stays tight in it's assembled position in the lock itself while the side plate screw is tightened into and removed from it.
Don't over crank it to tighten it up and it'll be just fine. The lock should be a snug fit in the wood. The side plate screw(s) just hold it from falling free, not from moving around.

Keep trigger location in mind when choosing which screw to alter and use. The side plate screw coming thru at a new location may interfere with an already placed trigger or one you have in mind. Especially one pinned extra high in the wood.
Like most things,,takes a bit of figurin'

It's a bit of work but really doesn't take too much time. Pretty straight forward. Not very purist probably for the era, but a way to make things work for you.

[caliber45]

Thanks for the reassuring words, Rich. Thans, Kutter, for the innovative suggestion for a potential solution to my self-made dilemma. I'll file that away for future reference. Meanwhile, I guess I'll stick to rifles. I was just using a barrel scrap for the pistol to fill some time between rifle projects anyway. Thanks again! -- paul

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

One way you can sometimes move the rear bolt back some is by using one of the bridal screws or even the sear spring screw as an anchoring point. Doesn't work with every lock & situation.

The upper bridal screw usually does it and looks the best as it ends up in a traditional looking location on the sideplate.

You have to make a new screw to replace the one in the lock. Make the head of it a little larger in diameter if you can (the sear screw sometimes doesn't have room for this) and with a high head.
(I have to admit I've brazed on a 'new' head to the existing screw to do this after turning the slotted area off.
Much quicker than making a new screw. I repair alot of originals w/ beat up heads and slots this way too)

Drill and tap the new head of the screw for what ever the side lock screw that will be used.
This will be a blind hole, so keep that in mind when making the screw to begin with and how much thread engagement you want

You'll have to put a slot in it also but not very deep so you can use it to assemble the lock to begin with.

Once you've made the new screw and are satisfied with it.,,

Disassemble the lock, replace the lock plate back in the stock and drill a pilot hole for the side plate screw screw using the empty hole in the lock plate as the guide. Drill 'between centers' with the correct location on the side plate side.

Now remove the plate and counter sink the hole for the oversize screw head you just made and drill thru with a correct size drill so your side plate screw slides through.

Re-assemble the lock with the new screw.  Use a dot of LocTite on the threads of that new screw (the kind you can undo w/o using heat).


The rear side plate screw now enters from the left and engages that new screw head to tighten up.
The screw itself is already tightened as needed in the assembly of the lock, so this extra duty doesn't effect the function of the lock. It's just holding the lock assembly in place in the wood.
The LocTite assures that the screw stays tight in it's assembled position in the lock itself while the side plate screw is tightened into and removed from it.
Don't over crank it to tighten it up and it'll be just fine. The lock should be a snug fit in the wood. The side plate screw(s) just hold it from falling free, not from moving around.

Keep trigger location in mind when choosing which screw to alter and use. The side plate screw coming thru at a new location may interfere with an already placed trigger or one you have in mind. Especially one pinned extra high in the wood.
Like most things,,takes a bit of figurin'

It's a bit of work but really doesn't take too much time. Pretty straight forward. Not very purist probably for the era, but a way to make things work for you.

Kutter, I have one exactly like what you describe. it was a bit tricky to get just right but then works like a charm.... beats heck out of throwing a stock away!!

[bob in the woods]

A very long time ago, when I was starting out in the work shop, it was impressed upon me by a fine luthier that paper was cheaper than wood. Especially expensive wood !   All of my designs/ builds  are first drawn out on paper.
It is amazing how many potential problems are eliminated by this simple step. I strongly recommend it 

[Acer Saccharum]

If you make a mistake on paper, there is a wonderful invention, I think they call it an eraser over here, a rubber over there.