Aqua Fortis

[kaen]

Has anyone tried to make Aqua Fortis using Muriatic Acid instead of Nitric Acid? What were the results?

I mixed a batch several weeks ago consisting of one part Muriatic Acid to about twenty parts water with several iron chunks. The iron chunks dissolved for the most part resulting in a rusty brown solution.  The mixture was filtered to remove the sludge and them applied liberally using a brush. The maple turned a weathered grey colour, not unlike barnboard, within seconds and then I then applied heat using an electric heat gun. The maple changed from weathered grey, to a weathered olive grey with burgundy areas.  I believe the burgundy areas are the result of uneven heat, or more likely, too much heat.

I didn't achieve any red brown tones whatsoever.

Karl

[Dennis Glazener]

I didn't achieve any red brown tones whatsoever.

Karl

Most of your red tones are all in the filter.
Dennis

[WadePatton]

I didn't achieve any red brown tones whatsoever.

Karl

Most of your red tones are all in the filter.
Dennis

That took a couple of reads to understand.  Now i think i get it-something like this: Using the whole, unfiltered product should produce betters colors.

In other words (IOW) don't fear the sludge, use it.

fix me if i'm bent.

edit: here is the long answer to the filter comment. taken from acetic acid/iron stains discussion 

Tim,

The REASON the acid/iron stains provide such a depth and vibrance of color is that they are a solution - meaning that individual molecules of iron acetate or iron nitrate flow into the wood and later turn to iron oxide molecules.  A filter only blocks the large particles and lets the finer particles flow through.  The finest filter you can find will still be letting particles through that are close to 1,000,000 times larger than the individual molecules.  This is why commercial pigment stains don't achieve the same depth of color that the real acid/iron stains do.

If you want the best results decant off clear solution.  If you rely on a filter your results might look dull and muddy.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Ed Wenger]

Karl,

If you haven't done so, dampen a rag with household ammonia, and wipe the stock.  This will help neutralize the acid, and you might be surprised with some more redish color.  This will give you an idea as to what the wood will look like once finished.  It will look different than the dry wood.

I've never done the muriatic acid, always used nitric acid, one part acid to six parts water with old iron dissolved to a tea color.  Depending on the wood, there's usually some red tones, always golden tones. 

Good luck and let us know how things work out.

   Ed

[necchi]

I mixed a batch several weeks ago consisting of one part Muriatic Acid to about twenty parts water with several iron chunks.

Well, then it's not Aqua Fortis is it 

[Dphariss]

I would avoid it like the plague for stain making. Muriatic is another name for Hydrochloric.
Nitric Acid alone makes the best stain. Even adding hydrochloric to the nitric (as in some commercial stains of the past ) screws up the stain.
Based on my use of commercial stains with hydorchloric I have no idea why anyone would want a stain adulterated with the stuff.
Dan

[Dphariss]

One other thing, I would advise testing the sludge laden stain before using it. I use the transparent part of the stain and leave the sludge at the bottom of the jar.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, I would think that the sludge would impart a muddy and vague colour.

[T*O*F]

HCl + iron = iron chloride
HNO3 + iron = iron nitrate
vinegar + iron = iron acetate.

Obviously all contain iron, but each has different properties yielding different results.  Why try to reinvent the wheel.  There's a reason why real aqua fortis has been used over the years and is commercially produced.  If the others were any good, they would be sold as well.....but they ain't.

[smallpatch]

I've given up on making my own aqua fortis. The end product you are trying to attain is ferric nitrate. It can be bought from the science as a powder. Just add water and use it.  Way cheaper, way safer, and I've never seen any reason to have to neutralize it.

[WadePatton]

I've given up on making my own aqua fortis. The end product you are trying to attain is ferric nitrate. It can be bought from the science as a powder. Just add water and use it.  Way cheaper, way safer, and I've never seen any reason to have to neutralize it.

So that others don't have to look it up as I just did.  3.5 ounces (100g-i had to look that up too) 19 dollars shipped from The Science Co. (per ebay listing). 

---now i'm reading all the FN crystals threads. 

[kaen]

I purchased some ammonia, as suggested by Ed, and I applied a single coat onto the test piece. It immediately changed to a deep dark chocolate brown with blond highlights. Interesting, but not what I had hoped to achieve. I couldn't find any sources locally for the nitric acid so I'll just bight the bullet and order the ferric nitrate crystals.
Thanks for everyone's replies.

Karl

[Jerry V Lape]

Smallpatch,

I have the crystals of ferric nitrate but don't know where to start of mixing them with water.  What portions do you prefer?

[PPatch]

Jerry;

5:1 are the portions, the five being alcohol, you only need a few ounces to do a stock even doing say three coats with heat in between. Mix it and and use it the same day and within a week or so, as it will turn a muddy brown soon enough and loose its effectiveness. I have been doing tests with FN for a while now, it works! It is very hydroscopic so keep your jar tightly sealed and wrapped in cling wrap inside a baggie.

dp

[moleeyes36]

If the crystals of ferric nitrate are dry are we talking about mixing a dry volume to 5 times that volume of liquid?  For instance, 1 tablespoon of ferric nitrate crystals to 5 tablespoons of alcohol?  And do you need to use a 99% strength solution of alcohol?  Thanks.

[Dphariss]

Jerry;

5:1 are the portions, the five being alcohol, you only need a few ounces to do a stock even doing say three coats with heat in between. Mix it and and use it the same day and within a week or so, as it will turn a muddy brown soon enough and loose its effectiveness. I have been doing tests with FN for a while now, it works! It is very hydroscopic so keep your jar tightly sealed and wrapped in cling wrap inside a baggie.

dp

What happens when you mix it with water?

Dan

[PPatch]

Yes Moleeyes - 5 alcohol to one FN by volume measure. It probably makes no matter if is is clumped up from moisture or not but I use  a wooden dowel to break up the clumps and then add and alcohol and stir well until all is desolved. I use everyday "denatured" alcohol and that works. I have no idea what strength is is.

dp

[Tom Cooper]

Jerry;

5:1 are the portions, the five being alcohol, you only need a few ounces to do a stock even doing say three coats with heat in between. Mix it and and use it the same day and within a week or so, as it will turn a muddy brown soon enough and loose its effectiveness. I have been doing tests with FN for a while now, it works! It is very hydroscopic so keep your jar tightly sealed and wrapped in cling wrap inside a baggie.

dp

What happens when you mix it with water?

Dan

It looks great on my test scraps, solution was made up almost a year ago with water.

[Meteorman]

The only difference I've seen when using water with the FeNO3 crystals is that it raises the grain more than alcohol.
So I use alcohol.
/mike m