Bag and horn

[Hawken62_flint]

I made this bag and horn, copied no particular bag or horn from any publication, just made it -- I have been trying to sell it with no luck, so I would really like to hear comments on it from the membership.  The bag is made from brain tanned deer and some of the hair is still on the flap.  It is stitched with waxed linen thread.  The strap is veg tanned leather of 2 to 3 ounces with a forged iron buckle for adjustment.  A 60 grain measure and a vent pick is included.  The horn was left pretty rough, with a pine butt plug and a wrought iron staple.  The throat is faceted and file marks were left on it.  No sandpaper was used in making this horn, just files and rasps. The stopper is a fiddle peg.  There is a copper repair and it really is a repair, as I drilled out through the neck when drilling it.  The hole was filled and then covered with the the piece of copper held in place by brass tacks.  Comments please.  The first couple pictures show the best true color of the bag and horn.

[necchi]

Ok, you asked,,
The bag might look a little better to a buyer if it was stitched with a welting and actually had a rectangle or square shape. The flap would look a little better if it fit the bag instead of hanging all off to one side.
The clean crisp look of the veg tan belt is out of place with the rustic look of the bag,, kind of a mismatch going on. And the outside pocket is crooked.

I get the idea you where trying to replicate something that a crude backwoodsmen might put together, but they didn't really do a lot of that,, a bag was generally made to be a functional bag.

Won't comment much on the horn, but when you where using the rasps and files you missed the bottom 3-4 inches. Cut that part all off and refit the plug with small nails or wood pegs, dump the big brass upholstery nails.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Necchi covered just about all the areas, but before I take the time to point out further areas needing improvement I'd like to know who I'm dealing with.  What is your name?  Also, what exactly have you got invested in time, training and/or reference work (like books) that lead you to making this set?  And what is your ambition going forward?
Gary

[Hawken62_flint]

Gary, PM sent.  Necchi, thanks for your comments.  The pocket just got started crooked and so I decided to leave it.  I don't believe the frontiersmen all had perfect bags, but I could be wrong.  As I stated, I didn't follow any particular pattern or book.  I am not sure why I would put a welt in the bag, as it is not stiched across the bottom, but folded there.  What should I have used for the strap instead of the veg tanned leather?  Should I have used more brain tan?  Also, I meant to leave the horn with the original ridges in it.  I did not rasp that part at all and I have a picture of an original that is very similar.  I will get rid of the brass tacks, and replace them with wooden pegs--just got in a hurry to finish the bag and horn and stuck the brass tacks in.  After looking at the pictures, the tacks are obnoxious.  Thanks again for taking time to comment.

[gizamo]

Perhaps you should follow your instinct's  and just work more on materials and skills.  

Your bags will evolve quickly as you master your own technique.  There are some great bags out there that aren't cookie cutter....


http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/08/hunting-pouch-by-jack-duprey.html?m=1

Enjoy the journey...   read, learn, experiment... If you aren't making mistakes - you aren't trying hard enough.   

Giz

[nifeman]

Don't know how long you been trying to sell your bag and horn, but, remember your dealing with a select crowd and I'm sure someone would like it as it is. Some of the comments were true, for that particular person, but, don't let anybody put you down, at least you're trying and that's a plus in my book...Bud

[G. Elsenbeck]

Terry thank you for your response and pm.  Going forward is it your intention to continue making hunting bags and powder horns?  If so I very strongly advise you to get at least these two books:

Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn by Scott Sibley
Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch by T.C. Albert,

and practice, practice, ask questions, practice, practice, etc.

Gary

"Efforts and courage are not enough without purpose and direction"  John F Kennedy

"Quality is never an accident, it is always the result of intelligent effort"  John Ruskin

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I like this set.  I do feel the the flap is oversized and bringing it closer to the pouch would be nice.  The only thing about the horn that turns me off are the tacks.  But that is me. 

There is a pouch at Guilford Courthouse National Military Park museum that is buckskin, with a heavy veg tan belt for the strap.  I do believe the belted strap is not original to the pouch.  But what has been done here is not historically out of place.

Coryjoe

[necchi]

Ya know guy's, I get it
Sorry, happy-happy nice-nice is a good thing to encourage participation and continued learning skills as we move along in life.

I am not a professional bag maker, (sentence removed as it offended someone), I a have certainly made a few bags as the one shown here as I began my quest for learning.
But I never attempted to sell them for 3 digit figures and I never expected folks to offer me anything more than honest critique when it was asked for..

Buy some books, keep on studying,, that's great advice.

I can see that the material used as presented here for both items just as they are, can still be used to make something that would indeed be marketable, something that many would be willing to purchase.

But simple issues like,, a plan,, a tape measure, a knife or scissors, straight cutting, straight and balanced stitching with proper tension, (that's where the welting helps) and stopping to look for solutions when errors occur actually help.

I'm not trying to be rude, just take what's there and re-make it into something that' someone want's to buy, and it's best sold for cost of material at this point so that more material can be bought to learn some more.

It takes patients, practice and more practice, telling everyone that the first attempt is "most glorious" and "it's OK your trying" won't help improve anything.

Maybe the guy shouldn't make bags, and is indeed better at metal work??  

post script,, too much oven cleaner was used!

[nifeman]

This is true. That is why my wife and I share in the work, she making the sheath while I do the metal work. However, we don't want to discourage anyone from trying to do better. Not all of our items appeal to the masses, but, there are enough people who do like them to keep us going. We all can't be Sibleys or Winklers and I agree we can't all charge 3 or even 4 digit prices if the quality isn't there (but some us can't afford to either). Just my 2 cents...Bud

[EricEwing]

One thing I would add is in regards to your question about adding a welt when doing a fold-over bag.
When I do a fold-over bag I will make full divider inside that also acts as a welt.

If you are interested in making primitive pouches then another book that has helped me, a novice, is Jim Webb's book on southern bags and horns etc.

If you are unhappy with it, and don't want to use it yourself, the materials look pretty nice, take it apart and redo.

[RoaringBull]

Ya know guy's, I get it
Sorry, happy-happy nice-nice is a good thing to encourage participation and continued learning skills as we move along in life.

I am not a professional bag maker, nor do I pay a fee to have my bags listed as skilled on some blog, I a have certainly made a few bags as the one shown here as I began my quest for learning.
But I never attempted to sell them for 3 digit figures and I never expected folks to offer me anything more than honest critique when it was asked for..

Buy some books, keep on studying,, that's great advice.

I can see that the material used as presented here for both items just as they are, can still be used to make something that would indeed be marketable, something that many would be willing to purchase.

But simple issues like,, a plan,, a tape measure, a knife or scissors, straight cutting, straight and balanced stitching with proper tension, (that's where the welting helps) and stopping to look for solutions when errors occur actually help.

I'm not trying to be rude, just take what's there and re-make it into something that' someone want's to buy, and it's best sold for cost of material at this point so that more material can be bought to learn some more.

It takes patients, practice and more practice, telling everyone that the first attempt is "most glorious" and "it's OK your trying" won't help improve anything.

Maybe the guy shouldn't make bags, and is indeed better at metal work??  

post script,, too much oven cleaner was used!

Very well said.

[mustangpalmer1911]

I have yet to make a bag, horn, or rifle but have been doing alot of looking here and any other place I can get info on colonial period weapons and gear...so I have dont have much of a idea yet whats correct, and whats fantasey. That being said I love the concept of the bag and horn I buy what catches my eye more than correct necessarily. I think the flap is a little much on the bag. Same "natural edge" would look cool but the size of it take over to much hides to much of the rest and seems it would be alot of material to get in the way trying to use the bag ect. I would have a bag with the same idea but the flap smaller. 

[G. Elsenbeck]

Ya know guy's, I get it
Sorry, happy-happy nice-nice is a good thing to encourage participation and continued learning skills as we move along in life.

I am not a professional bag maker, nor do I pay a fee to have my bags listed as skilled on some blog, I a have certainly made a few bags as the one shown here as I began my quest for learning.
But I never attempted to sell them for 3 digit figures and I never expected folks to offer me anything more than honest critique when it was asked for..

Buy some books, keep on studying,, that's great advice.

I can see that the material used as presented here for both items just as they are, can still be used to make something that would indeed be marketable, something that many would be willing to purchase.

But simple issues like,, a plan,, a tape measure, a knife or scissors, straight cutting, straight and balanced stitching with proper tension, (that's where the welting helps) and stopping to look for solutions when errors occur actually help.

I'm not trying to be rude, just take what's there and re-make it into something that' someone want's to buy, and it's best sold for cost of material at this point so that more material can be bought to learn some more.

It takes patients, practice and more practice, telling everyone that the first attempt is "most glorious" and "it's OK your trying" won't help improve anything.

Maybe the guy shouldn't make bags, and is indeed better at metal work?? 

post script,, too much oven cleaner was used!

Very well said Necchi. 

[Clark Badgett]

The best advice is usually the toughest to hear, at first. Necchi has given you some very good points to consider. First thing you need to do if you wish to make bags that at least have a 18-19th century flavor, even if not actually 100% period correct is forget modern taste and the Hollywood influences. While there are always exceptions to every rule, folks in those eras did not actually wish to look like cavemen or "savages". When folks took what precious free time they had, outside of the neccesities of survival to make something, they tried to make at as well as they could, which was sometimes down right awful. They would not have intended it to look awful. Take what you have and see what you can do to make it look presentable. Folks in those eras, for the most part, went to great lengths to present a good public image, often times at the "cliffs edge" of outright fopishment.

[Hawken62_flint]

Thanks for the comments and criticisms--all is appreciated, as I did ask for any and all comments, so that means constructive or otherwise and I do appreciate them.  As for the comment "too much oven cleaner"---I bought this deer hide as brain tanned and if the tanner used oven cleaner, then he lied to me about the tanning process.  I certainly didn't use any oven cleaner or any other type of aging process.  All I did was cut it out, sew it up and dye it with Fiebings dark brown stain.  The wrinkles were already there when I got the hide.  BTW, the bag and horn sold last week for $150, so maybe my pricing wasn't too far out there. And I know what the next comment will be, "that there is a sucker born every minute".  Well the guy that bought it is an avid bp shooter and he was not real worried about the pc of it, he just liked the look.  Thanks again, Terry.

[bigbat]

That is cool that you sold it.  It made 2 people happy, you and the buyer.  I started making horns before 1976, but really got into it big in 76.  To say "not everyone can be a WInkler or a Sibley" is not the case.  If you want something bad enough to stick with as long as I have it will come to you.  If one really wants to build a Sibley type horn I have written two books on the subject  and you can  instantly (well almost) take advantage of all those years it took me to get where it is I am.

Your bag and horn were interesting.  I never ask for critiques nor do I rarely give them. If I am happy with what I make than That is what I am after.  The buyer tells me he   likes it by spending his money/

Scott Sibley

[R.D.Metcalf]

Awesome  post, Scott

[Hawken62_flint]

Scott, thanks for you post.  Your work is really in a class of its own, but you have put in a lot of years to get where you are, and I respect that.  Maybe (?) I have learned something from this and your comment about not asking for critiques and not giving them.  The part about not giving opinions or critiques is a hard lesson to learn, at least for me.  Thanks again, Terry

[bigbat]

you are very welcome,  If you are having fun, keep at it.  I build things to make me happy first, I have not been happy with everything I have made and so it "disappears" 

Take Care,
Scott Sibley

[Robby]

I'm glad it worked out for you Hawken!!! I liked it, it had kind of a Feral quality about it, pretty cool!!
I don't usually offer critique's, I just don't feel qualified. I do ask for them on my guns though. I don't get around much, even at my age, my imagination can quickly lead me too far astray, so its nice to have this resource. Though I do understand Scott's opinion.
Robby