How to properly load 20 ga. double percussion

[1911tex]

Using RS Pyrodex..60gr., 1oz 7.5 for doves.  Sequence: powder, over powder nitro card, lubed fibre wad, shot, over shot card.  Went hunting yesterday, tipped the bbl down and all shot ran out of the bbl.  The TOW over shot cards flipped with weight of the shot.  Because I was in the field, I used another thick fibre wad again over the shot to keep the shot in.  No problems thereafter, but I was told using the thick wad over the shot increased the pressures.  Question, what do you use over the shot?

[Steve-In]

Did your wad soak up excess lube?  I carry my 10 bore all through turkey season and I have never had one slip.  (I check before heading out) Same with my 18 bunny gun.  If they slip with just the weight of the shot they will probably slide forward on recoil with potential disastrous results.  The overshot wad and the overpowder wad should squeak when pushed down.  There should be lots of resistance.  If it is a matter of them soaking up lube get a wad cutter and punch out some OS wads out of milk carton.

[nosrettap1958]

Interesting. Tex is this a modern built shotgun or an original? The reason I ask is that shotguns from that era have all sorts of different gauges, from a 2 gauge on up and and everything, and I mean everything, in between, 13 gauges, 14 gauges, 21 gauges.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yes, the over-shot wad must be super tight.  I usually make a small indent on the edge of the disc, so that the air between the wad and the shot can escape.  Otherwise, the seal is so good that it's difficult to get the disc down.  I have a 14 bore double percussion by John Manton, and the wads I bought from TOW (Circle Fly, I'm sure) are perfect.  The thing to do is to measure your bore with calipers, and then order the wads that are the next size bigger than your measurement.

[1911tex]

Steve-In: The overshot card should not be called a wad..as I purchased it, it came in a bag called "20ga. overshot cards"...very thin, 1/2 as thick as the overpowder nitro card, all manufactured by "Circle Fly Wads"........a poor excuse for an overshot card (hardly more than milk carton material), maybe they were mislabeled??...I am going to call and complain...no way they can hold back shot.

crawdad:  Modern Pedersoli...great quality double, full and modified chokes.


D. Taylor Sapergia:  As mentioned above, I think either TOW or Circle Fly, mislabeled.  These are a poor choice for overshot cards.

Once I call and complain, I will post the results.

Edit:  Here is the link...look at "WAD B"...poor for an overshot wad..not a wad, but a card !

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/170/1

Thanks

[nosrettap1958]

Tex, that's what we all use, the overshot card. I have never had a problem. So before you do that lets see. A modern shotgun with chokes. How are you positioning the 'card' to get passed the chokes and ram it down the barrel?

[1911tex]

crawdad:   I fit the card no different than the wad or over powder card; i.e., push it into the edge of the muzzle with my thumb (parallel with the opening), then push it down with the proper 20 ga. patch button on the end of the rod...firmly seating it flat on the shot. Just for instance, I just loaded 1oz 7.5 shot and seated the card firmly flat on the shot (could see it easily with a flashlight)...then put muzzle down...shot held, then walked a few yards...out came the shot...both bbls..full and modified....looked down the bbl and the card had flipped perpendicular to the muzzle opening.  The card is so thin that the weight of the shot tilted the card.  I am going to solve the problem using an over powder card over the shot...it is a thicker...just tried it and it worked fine.   The standard over shot card I received is simular to milk carton material....maybe I received a bad lot??

[smokinbuck]

Tex,
In both my 12 ga and my 16ga I use the same card over both the powder and the shot. I also eliminate the cushion wad and get much better shot patterns than when I use them.
Mark

[nosrettap1958]

That may be the case right there Tex.  The problem I have in this is I NEVER had a choke to deal with as all my shotguns, Pedersoli and AMR, have been cylinder bored. But if that is what is happening that simple movement kicks the card sideways and the shot pores out, maybe it is a bad lot.  

[1911tex]

smokinbuck:  You just solved my problem.....going dove hunting again next week if it ever cools down a little for the migratories to come down.  Same card, overpowder and overshot.....yes!  But I think I will stick with the treated cushion wad for lube.

[smokinbuck]

Tex,
Hope it works well for you. I'm getting 70-75% patterns at 30 yards on an 8 1/2 X 11 paper using 3 drams of 2f. With rhe cushion wad in place it blows the pattern to around 45-50%. That's with a 36" barreled 12 Ga.
Mark

[Kermit]

I'm pretty much with Mark. I read V. M. Starr many years ago and haven't looked back. He did a lot of testing and patterning with mostly original percussion side-by-sides. His conclusion was that the column should be:

[powder/2 thin overshot cards/shot/1 thin overshot card]

Powder and shot should be equal volumes, so only one measure. Increase the shot load, and the powder increases too. I used to use store bought lubes, but find spit works fine. I like it for its simplicity, the few components and tools, as well as the fact that it's the best patterning I've produced in every smoothbore I've owned. But for some reason I'm not able to convince folks that a muzzleloading smoothbore doesn't need to have a shot column like what's in a smokeless shotshell. They hang on to their lube soaked cushion wads for dear life. Their loss.

[Steve-In]

Steve-In: The overshot card should not be called a wad..as I purchased it, it came in a bag called "20ga. overshot cards"...very thin, 1/2 as thick as the overpowder nitro card, all manufactured by "Circle Fly Wads"........a poor excuse for an overshot card (hardly more than milk carton material), maybe they were mislabeled??...I am going to call and complain...no way they can hold back shot.

LOL  don't matter what they are called I use the same thin wad and I have never had a problem.  I get mine from Mike's at Flintlocks Inc and I doubt they are over .030" thick.  They hold 1-7/8 oz. in my 10 gauge just fine.  Same for my 18.  Go to a the next larger size or to be sure have your bores measured.  It is not Tracks or Circle Fly's problem unless the wads are too small.

[1911tex]

I guess somehow, the problem is mine.  Going to the range today to test several above mentioned variables; including with/without cushion wad.  Thanks fellas.

[JB2]

I wonder if the next size bigger (19 or 18 ga) would help your 20?  Now I'm nervous about the over-shot cards I have for my new-to-me 12ga pedersoli.  Off to measure some bores! 

Anybody still punching out their own cards?  Not that they're all that expensive, but a TOW order is always about 3 days out, and a lot of us don't live near a retail outlet that carries such specialized stuff.  I'm thinking some .75" id thin-wall tubing would make a nice punch, and I knew I was saving those empty Coors Light cardboard cases for something.

[nosrettap1958]

Never thought of that.  Tex's shotgun may be overbored and caliber may be a 62 or a 62.5 caliber 20 gauge.  Circle Fly makes them all, try some out because it may be you have a big 20 gauge.   Regardless, the shot shouldn't push the over shot card aside and run out from simply walking across a field.  

[Hungry Horse]

 A young shooter a few years ago, came to me with a similar problem. What we found, was he had a small tip on his ramrod, instead of a large flat faced button. When he pushed the card down the barrel, the rod tended to run to the edge of the card, causing it to be canted in the bore, just a bit. When he tipped the barrel down, some times, the card would move, releasing the shot, because it wasn't square in the bore, and correspondingly not tight.

                      Hungry Horse

[Dan'l 1946]

 It's a good idea to check the load as you hunt. Every so often run the ramrod down the bore and be sure the load is still where it belongs.
                                                     Dan

[smokinbuck]

Jim B,
You can buy wad/card punches from a number of sources, including Harbor Freight, for very little in the way of dollars. I also have a 12 ga barrel cut off that I sharpened and use as a wad/card punch. Make sure you empty those Coors cases after you've shot your limit.
Mark

[nosrettap1958]

Good point HH, it may be that as well. But I thought he said he was using the proper "tulip" on his ramrod though.

[JB2]

My barrels have numbers stamped underneath at the breech end.  Don't know if Tex's barrels are marked underneath too, but might help with picking a different card, if size is the problem.

the bores (muzzle end) on my Ped. 12 ga.  measured .725" and .711".  Factory info calls them cylinder (no choke), and improved.  Noticed the numbers stamped on bottom of barrels at breech end, 4, and 0.  The 0 (zero) I figured right away as zero choke, it's on the 'cylinder bore' side.  The 4 took me a minute, but I'm assuming it means .4mm constriction.  Pedersoli IS Italian, and therefore metric.  .4mm is about .0157", or .725"-.0157"=.7093".   close enuff fer me.  Can definitely feel the choke when I run tight patches down the 'improved' bore too.  The .725" over-shot cards I have won't be big enuff. 


Smokin', if I wait till I get my limit to drink a Silver Bullet, that case will last me all season, and then some!!  The adult beverages never come out till the guns and game are cleaned and put away.  And good to know HF might have a punch.  Neat. 

[1911tex]

FYI:  I ordered from TOW, 18 and 19 ga. overshot wads to try to solve my problem in my 20ga. Pedersoli.  Last time out for doves, as indicated at the start of this thread, I used cushion wads for over the shot......but did get my limit !