little lollipop tang

[54ball]

 Ive just started my project a Cherry stocked 44" swamped bbl Mathew Gillespie in percussion.  The first order of business is to inlet the breech and tang as my stock came with the bbl inletted from Jacks Mountain.
  I'm using a Colerain bbl.  I want to use a lollipop but the Gillespies used a shorter lollipop tang.  It looks like I'll have to make it.
  It looks like the easiest thing to do is to modify my flared plug.  I think a weld on top would show so I've thought about grinding the tang off or down enough on the plug to weld, solder or braze a new lollipop tang on top.
 What type of steel would work for the new tang, common angle iron?
  Any suggestions or ideas would be appreciated. 

[Ian Pratt]

  Most any mild steel ought to work. You can braze it together and it ought to hold fine. You might make your new piece very slightly long toward the breech so you have some material for file fitting back to the barrel.
  One consideration, depending on the metal finish you will use you may want to test it on a piece of your new material and on the bottom of the barrel, see if they match. Not always critical, depends on what you want it to end up looking like.
   If you have access to a forge or even a torch and something that could be construed as an anvil, usually those colerain plug tangs are pretty meaty and you can draw out enough material to make a shorter long tang.  

[Bill of the 45th]

I'd say just weld it up, and grind/file to shape.  Packdog just had one doe recently, and you can't tell where it is welded.  It was a Rice flaired tang.  The big advantage is if the tang is already fitted to the barrel.  Maybe Ken will post a pic.

Bill

[54ball]

 Thanks for the suggestions.
 I may try to draw this plug out first to see what kind if length I can get.  It was fitted  but removed for the stocker to inlet the barrel.  Plan B will be to braze new stock if the drawing does not work. 
 The research on inletting this type of tang has made me think I may be better off just lengthening the tang out to a spear point instead.  The spear point is correct for the rifle type and even the builder, Mathew Gillespie.
 This is my first build and I am a little intimidated by the lollipop.   

[Sam Everly]

You can weld it up and never see it . I have these specs taken off a Phillip Gillespie rifle i restored. The overall length is 4.455, the flare length is 1.675, the front of the flare was ,430 dia. the rear of the flare was .489, the narrow section was .275 wide, and 2.350 long , the ball dia was .430 . 

[54ball]

 Thanks for those specifications that helps a lot.

[Birddog6]

You can weld it up and never see it . I have these specs taken off a Phillip Gillespie rifle i restored. The overall length is 4.455, the flare length is 1.675, the front of the flare was ,430 dia. the rear of the flare was .489, the narrow section was .275 wide, and 2.350 long , the ball dia was .430 .  

That is helpful, as I am about to make the tang for a Gillispie myself.  Still debating on whether to do the lollipop tang or go up over the comb.

I agree, you can weld that tang extension on with a wire welder & never see it. I have done several of them. Never know it was added on there. If you braze it or silver solder it on, you need a perfect fit at the joint or you will see the joint.

As for what type of steel to use, just any mild steel will work. I just picked up a 3' piece of 1/8" thick by 1/2" wide flat iron at Lowes & cut mine out of that.  That is plenty for the lollipop/eye if it has one & you just cut out the rest of it with a metal bandsaw or hacksaw or grind it out.

[WadePatton]

Revival

So I had someone else arc weld my extension on with a butt joint.

When the crack showed up i thought it was in the HAZ from me shaping/bending to contour (and not annealing the work). 

So i filed out a bit of the crack on top and side and gas welded it (thinking it was a new crack, not the original joint).  Filed it all back down

Then broke it today as the crack wasn't in the HAZ, it was at the join, from insufficient penetration.  The proper weldment was only at the surface and i had filed most of it away.

Question for you extenders- do you generally use lap joints or simply get full-penetration on butt joints?  (for converting Colerain type plugs to extended tangs).  thanks

I'm thinking of lapping the next one for sure.

[gunmaker]

To make a strong butt joint, 1st chamfer both pieces back on a 45 deg. angle  like draft on a lock plate kinda --more or less about 1/2 to 3/4 of the thickness. clamp up the parts lined up nice.  Zap a quick spot of weld with a wire gun, let it cool a bit, zap & cool until full.  Turn piece over file or grind another chamfer-groove on that side to touch the weld puddle bottom.  zap some more.  File & dress to your spec's.  Takes longer to describe than do sometimes.    Tom.....retired welder/fitter.

[mattdog]

I do similar to what Tom describes except I don't go as deep.  I only chamfer as deep or a little deeper than I expect to file to clean up the weld/shape the part.  You can not break it or crack it.  I use TIG and when done I can blue or brown the part with no evidence of the weld.

[WadePatton]

Yes i can weld, but don't currently own a welder.  It was done by retired machinist, and i was surprised by the lack of penetration. 

My question was more about lap vs. butt joint.    Butts it is i reckon-with full proper weld (which i can do with O/A  if necessary, but am trying to save my A  )

[David Rase]

When welding two pieces of metal together such as a tang extension, I grind an angle approximately 45 degree on the top and bottom of each piece.  I then clamp them to a strong back and weld one side.  I then grind the weld flush with the parent metal, flip it over and repeat the process.  The 45's are ground to a point in the middle of the section and then when they are clamped together a small root gap is left between the two pieces ensuring a 100% penetration weld.
Dave 

[rsells]

I just finished a tang on a Unicoy county rifle using a Colerain barrel.  Ian is correct in saying that the tang is thick.  I shaped the flared plug installed in the barrel to the length and width I measured on an original rifle.  Then, I took a piece of mild steel and cut into the shape of the original tang that went up and over the comb.  I left the end that attaches to the flared portion of the breech plug about a half inch longer than needed to butt up against the flared portion of the tang.  I cut a slot matching the width of the extension on the under side of the flared portion of the tang about 1/2 the depth of the tang running forward toward the barrel about 1/2 inch. I cut the top portion of the tang extension from the top to a depth to match the material thickness from the top of the flared tang down to the slot that would give me a slip fit between the two parts.  If done correctly, the top portion of the extension will be on the same plane as the top of the flared portion of the tang.  I put a slight taper (tapering from the top to the botton) on the part of the extension that slides into the slot on the flared portion of the tang.  Next, I slide the two parts together and take a small hammer and ping the underside of the two parts to mate them together.  The last step is to braze the two together.  This process makes a strong joint and is next to invisible when the metal is finished.  I have used this process since 1978 and have had no failures .  A bit of work, but well worth the effort once it is made and inlet into the stock.
                                                                                     Roger Sells

[sweed]

For strength, make two short cuts lengthwise on each piece. Bend the center one down on one piece, and up on the other. Slide these fingers together and hammer cold to fit. Now clean all and forge weld. This is the method I discovered on old wagons and used to make wagon tires from material 3/8x3" when I had my Saddle/Harness/Wheel shop. Once welded the extra thickness can be filed down since all the weld is in the center. Lot of work, but never had one separate. The method could be miniaturized for a tang, and if seen at all, would mayby add a handmade look. Just my 2cw.
sweed