Forge welding ramrod ferrules

[Mark Elliott]

Has anybody forge welded ramrod ferrules?   I have been brazing them, but many of the originals I have seen were very neatly welded.   I am going to try this using my usual mild steel sheet.   I am going to make a long mandrel just for the welding operation and make a bottom swage for the hardie hold on my anvil.    Does this sound like the right approach?   Any tips?   I could hammer out some wrought iron sheet if that would make a big difference.   My big concern is burning up the sheet steel before I can get it to welding temp.  Looking forward to a response.

[David R. Pennington]

You are talking about the tapered end for the ramrod on which the worm or jag is threaded, right? I just finished brazing one up. I've not had the privilege to inspect many originals but I suppose welding them would be possible. I suppose originals would have been wrought and it is my experience with forge welding that wrought is much more forgiving than steel when welding. It seems to take the heat better without burning and just seems to want to weld while the steel has to be coaxed. Recently I had two pieces of wrought iron buggy tire in the fire bringing them up to heat to weld. When they were almost to welding heat I let them touch together in the fire and they wanted to stick together!
I have some old forged socket chisels that have the sockets forge welded. While this is a good bit heavier stock than a tube for a ramrod would be it's the same technique.  Let us know how it turns out. This would be a good tutorial to post when you get it figured out.

[Bill of the 45th]

Disc 1, volume one of the Frank House Gun Builders companion has ramrod tips.  It's an American Pioneer Video 2 Disc set.  I think Frank brazes the tip then fills it so it can be threaded.  Haven't looked at it in a while.

Bill

[Habu]

At least with wrought iron, you can heat it indirectly.  Use a big chunk o' iron for a heat sink; heat it up, then use the heat sink to heat up the sheet metal.  My first few welds were done that way.  If I remember right, we used a chunk of railroad track about 3-4" long for the heat sink. 

I don't think you'd need a swage, just the mandrel.  Work with stock longer than you want to finish with, then trim afterwards.  You might try pre-heating your mandrel so you won't lose heat so quickly. 

Wrap the sheet around the mandrel but not quite touching, then remove it and set it to the side.  Heat up your heat sink and pre-heat the mandrel.  Put the sheet metal "blank" on the heat sink til it looks sticky, then pick it up with the mandrel.  Flux it, tap the joint, and it should weld. 

[KentSmith]

I make a ferrule two inches long, bend it around a mandrel and cut another piece of mild steel round stock filed to fit inside the sheet metal about 5/8" long.  I flux the round and the inside of the sheet and along the seam of the sheet, insert the round, make sure the round goes all the way to the end of the sheet tube.  I have some old tongs I ground down so the end looks like needle nose pliers to grip the ferrule with, heat the ferrule to welding heat and tap the end to make the weld, turning it so I get 3 or 4 good taps with one or two to seal the seam.  Trim the end, Drill and tap for an 8/32 screw and clean it up. 

The tongs are a snug fit and rounded on the outside of the jaws so they give me a enough support to prevent collapse of the ferrule when sealing the weld, especially along the seam. You could use a mandrel just as easily  Firm but not heavy taps and I use a round swage on a block. 

[Mark Elliott]

Thanks guys, for the suggestions.   

[mike blair]

Mr. Elliott.where the sides weld.split them in the middle then fit the edges together.second when welding thing like a ferule,you should always heat the mandrill in the forge so you don't lose your heat so fast .if you don't you will lose it faster than you can work the hammer.one last thing take a 3/8 rod about three feet long.draw the end to a fine point.as you start to bring the piece up to welding heat,keep touching the piece with the tip.when it starts to get tacky you are almost there.with a fine piece like this when it truly sticks your there.pull it and weld very quickly.oh one more thing.you need a very slow blast.if you have a hand cranked blower you should be fine.if its electric you need a gate that can let in only a tiny amount of air.i wish you well and i like your work,you'll do fine.this ones going to need practice.good luck and have fun. 

[mike blair]

I'm sorry.i meant a 3/16 rod,not 3/8.

[Mark Elliott]

Mike,  It took me a while to figure out what you meant by split the sides, but i just figured it out.   That is a great suggestion.   It should make it a lot easier.   That way,  if it just tacks in a couple of places, that will be good enough. 

[David R. Pennington]

What do you mean about splitting the sides. I'm not sure I understand. Notch the edges where they lap to help hold them?

[mike blair]

no,but close.after you lap the edges.go to the middle of the lap and split them just enough so when you slide  them together it will hold for the weld.Mr. Elliott please don't forget the 3/16 rod.if you watch the piece and keep taping with the drawn end.you wont burn it.just start to weld when the rod sticks to the piece.for heavier work after it sticks give the blast a couple of harder cranks  then weld.i should say none of these ideas are mine.just listening to the smiths with vaster experience than mine.who is it who says"listen to the old guys.they know stuff"or somthin like that. 

[Mark Elliott]

**Mark I edited the photo links so they did not auto display, for some reason the photos do not resize to the 700 pixel max allowed by the ALR software. The photos when auto-displayed were HUGE!
Dennis**

I finally got around to working on making welded ramrod ferrules.     It took me 12 tries to get what I wanted.    I made changes to my procedures and materials along the way, so I should be able to make a proper one whenever I need it.   The biggest problem I had was shaping the mandrel correctly and maintaining that shape; and getting the ferrule off the mandrel.    Actually forge welding the ferrule wasn't much of a problem.   Not welding it to the mandrel was a problem.

Here are photos of my final product.  

[Mark Elliott]

Ok..... I resized the photos.     So, everybody doesn't have a 100" monitor?   

[Dennis Glazener]

Mark,
The rr ferrules look good but I have a question/observation. I have an original rifle with one of these ferrules (see below) and at first I thought it was made from a solid piece of iron but then discovered that there is a very faint straight joint where the sheet iron/steel was butt welded. I see no evidence of brazeing and always assumed it was forge welded but not being a blacksmith I have no idea about how it could be done. Is is possible to forge weld a joint like that? I will see if I can get a photo of it.



Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Dennis,

I think the answer to your question is yes, just not by me at this time.   I tried to do a ferrule where there was little of no overlap.   It didn't work very well.   However, with lots of practice,  I think I could do one with little overlap.  I hammered the seam down better on other ferrules that I made, and you can, and I did, file out most of the seam on a ferrule that overlaps.   The biggest problem I had was not being able to get the ferrule off the mandrel in one piece.   Consequently,   I didn't hammer it as tight to the mandrel as i could.    I eventually figured out that by heating the ferrule and mandrel back up to just below welding temp,  the ferrule would slide right off.   I really needed to move on, so I didn't try another ferrule that was more tightly formed once I got something that looked acceptable.    I will make more for future rifles and will try again to make a smoother, tighter weld.   It was something of a luxury I afforded myself to work on this for a couple days.   I just can't afford to do a lot of playing, even if it is educational.      

By the way,  I didn't spend two days just on ferrules.    That was my mild steel welding practice.   I also did some welding practice with wrought iron.   That was much easier.  
It was also a ton a fun.  I get a kick out of hitting yellow/white hot iron and having molten yellow slag go everywhere.    My forge area is starting to look like a really working blacksmith's shop.    

[Dave B]

What would happen if you used a 1" bar that had a tapered hole and you drove the heated butt edged tube into the heated bar draw hole at welding heat? I should think that the circumferential compression would be force enough to form a decent weld for a rod tip

[Mark Elliott]

Well,  the bar/die would need to be heated to just below welding temp to keep from siphoning off too much heat from the ferrule, and then there is the issue of how to get the thing out.

[Dennis Glazener]

I was asked to post a photo of the end threads of my original iron rr ferrule and this is it. Threads are directly into the metal ferrule with no additional insert being inside. I might note that they were not standard threads, Jim Web had several sets of old taps and he found a British tap that fit the existing threads and made me a wiper that fits the original threads. Not sure if this was an accident or if they were in fact made with a British tap originally.

This is what I thought was forge welded butt joint but now I am not so sure. Looking at the faint joint with my naked eye (with 3X reading glasses) the joint looked like this end to end. When I photographed it look at the next photo to see what appears to be a braze joint! I don't know if the entire joint was brazed or if it was forged welded. I thought it was a butt joint but now it appears to be a lap joint that has been hammered (or filed) thin.

[tallbear]

Thanks for the pics Dennis.That sure makes it look like it was brass brazed.

Mitch

[Mark Elliott]

That metal looks thicker than the sheet I am using.    That would make it easier to weld.    Even if your ferrule isn't welded,  I have seen ones that were obviously lapped and welded just like the ones I made.   I have also seen ones that were just rolled and pinned, which would work just as well.   If you hammer those things tight around the mandrel while hot, they are not going to come loose if just used for a wiper.