Is there a market for extremely tight curl complete coverage Silver Maple Stocks

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I have run across a Silver Maple log that was cut in Idaho or Oregon that has extremely tight curl with full coverage throughout..  The log has been cut into slabs and has been drying for about a year.  I bought two half stock blanks of it and I have a chance to buy the rest of the log.  There is probably enough wood for 30 full stock blanks.  In doing some research on Silver maple, I understand if it is from the east and grown in damp areas, it may not be suitable for stock wood. But this was grown in the desert and is very hard and I believe it will make wonderful stocks.  I am sure about the species of the wood, Silver Maple (Acer Saccharinum), as opposed to Sugar Maple (Acer Saccharum)  I have worked Sugar Maple and this wood is denser and harder than premium Sugar Maple obtained from Pennsylvania.

My question to you builders is whether or not the wood is marketable to stock makers.  I don’t need thirty stocks but I can get a good price if I buy it all.   I think I could sell about 20 of the blanks at around $400 each.   I’ll take some photos of the  blanks I have and post them later.  Thanks for your advice.

Allan

[flehto]

Irregardless of hardness , density and beautiful curl,  don't think you'll sell many at $400 each if the blanks are advertised as Silver Maple, which is  really the  honest way to do it. Unless the buyer actually sees the blanks, selling sight unseen in this day and age, would be difficult ....silver maple isn't an accepted gunstock wood. As an inducement, a much lower price would be req'd for builders to take a chance  on  buying silver maple. Are you sure it's silver maple?.....Fred

[Dphariss]

Silver maple has a density of 32 pounds per cubic foot. Sugar maple 42 pounds per cubic foot.
Now while its possible this Silver Maple is as you state I would not buy it mail order at any price.
I dislike buying Sugar maple mail order but have little choice.

Dan

[WadePatton]

I have burned a lot of Southern curly silver maple for firewood.  It's very pretty but simply too soft. 

I know that you are convinced of suitability of your particular wood, but as the others say you might have a hard time convincing the stock-blank buying public.  Especially at higher prices. 

IF i were in your shoes, I might steeply discount (or GIVE) a couple of blanks to guys* willing to give it a shot and post photos of their results with specific commentary on the hardness/suitability of that particular tree.

*the better known/experienced/faster they are at building the better.

OR/also take the engineering route by measuring the actual density and hardness of those blanks-with specific cross-reference to _known_ suitable blanks.

great luck. 

[rich pierce]

 Have never seen silver maple large enough to yield that many stock blanks.  Sounds like a special log.  The problem with premium wood at premium prices is it will be hard for a custom builder to tell a customer that he paid that price for a silver maple blank that is plenty hard, when a mighty fine piece of sugar maple can be had at the same price or lower, and no reassurances needed.

[T*O*F]

Have never seen silver maple large enough to yield that many stock blanks.

Rich, you must not pay attention much.  Practically every small town park and farmstead in IL and IN have massive old silver maples 4-6 feet in diameter.  It used to be the ornamental tree of choice.

I have burned a lot of Southern curly silver maple for firewood.  It's very pretty but simply too soft. 

The growing season is too long in the south for most wood, which is why it doesn't have tight growth rings and is soft.

Within species, it matters where and under what conditions a tree has to struggle for its existence.  It is totally possible to have a hard, dense log of silver maple and in many instances it's no better or worse than red maple.  There are always specifics that are in opposition to generalities.

[WadePatton]

In this part of the Southeast, you'll not find any significant sized silver maple in the high woods (only in boggish areas-we found some today ), it's all Sugar and some RedBlack.  As noted most of the Silver comes from yards and bogs.  The firewood i had came from storm damaged yard tree near swampy land.  It was a 40-ish inch tree.

Sugar and Red Black are both called "hard" maple by the Log Buyers and bring more money* than the other maples-collectively called "soft".

*Twice as much at the same grade and the highest grade "soft" maple is #1 Common, whereas "hard" maple grades up to Veneer where it brings 4x as much as soft maples.  

I always thought it curious that they didn't grade for curl--and maybe they do further down the log trading chain.  But we do grow and sell lots of hardwood timber in this region-long seasons and all.

Pricing information from TransAtlantic Hardwoods Inc. price sheet last year.  I've sold them several truck loads.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I calculated the density of one rectangular piece at 36.3 pounds per cubic foot. Photos tonight.

[GANGGREEN]

Wade Patton, you may be correct and I'm not calling you out but in my neck of the woods, hard maple is sugar maple and only sugar maple.  When the loggers refer to soft maple, they're referring to red.  Like I said, this is just in my area in northern PA and perhaps in other parts of the country there's a different market or different industry jargon.

[E.vonAschwege]

Hey Allan,
    I haven't bought a blank from a regular supplier in a while, since I often cut my own or buy from friends here - when I went to Dixon's intending to buy a few blanks I was amazed at how the price has gone up on Red and Sugar maple.  Saw lots of blanks that were labeled as sugar maple that were as light as a feather and could be dented with the light touch of a finger nail - I didn't touch those!!!  Unfortunately as others have pointed out, silver maple is shunned for being "too soft" - and is even written about in Buchelle's book and some others as being unsuitable as a stock wood.  Even if they're super dense, I doubt you could get $400 a piece for the blanks when a lot of people shutter at spending half that on Red or Sugar.  

   That said, if I had a piece that was super dense and nicely figured, I wouldn't hesitate to use it myself.  I'm currently using a piece of dense Norway Maple on a pistol for a close friend - he wanted something from where we grew up, and I had a few nicely figured blanks from a tree from my old back yard.  I wouldn't likely be able to sell them for much even though they're dense and are beautifully stump/root figured - so I keep them for my own use.  I can't say what original gunsmiths were thinking, but if the wood is suitable for a stock then I'm game to use it.  

Lets see some pictures of the wood.  

-Eric

[WadePatton]

Wade Patton, you may be correct and I'm not calling you out but in my neck of the woods, hard maple is sugar maple and only sugar maple.  When the loggers refer to soft maple, they're referring to red.  Like I said, this is just in my area in northern PA and perhaps in other parts of the country there's a different market or different industry jargon.

Yeah, no problem.  I had confused Red with Black.  All the maple that's worth cutting ($) here is Black and Sugar.  I got sawdust in my brains. 

[t.caster]

FIREWOOD. You can get around $55-60 per face cord out by the road, in these parts of Michigan. I have an awful lot of big Silver Maples out in my woods. They always get me going when I see the super fine stripes, but I have tried for years to dry some pieces out, and test them for carvability. It really sucks and doesn't take any kind of stain very well either! Now when one falls down it's destined for the wood pile.
They don't even look good for furniture.
Maybe it is different in your neck of the woods, you never know. Cut some pistol size boards and dry them a year or two, just to see.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Here is one photo of the blank wetted with alcohol, and a link to several more shots.  All photos are of the same blank.  This stuff is as hard to my fingernail as Sugar.



http://s396.photobucket.com/user/Vol423/slideshow/Silver%20Maple

[Acer Saccharum]

That's interesting! Could be you have some nice stockwood. Certainly gorgeous.

[WadePatton]

yeah, it looks great.  I'm not agin it, maybe it all works out.  The waiting is the hardest part...or have some kiln dried or make your own drier.  good luck.

[Ron Scott]

If this Maple came from Oregon, it is likely Big Leaf Maple, which can be extremely variable in density. Most is soft, but I had access to some in the early 1980s that was close to sugar maple in character. You might consider trimming some small samples for evaluation. You could send a 1/4 inch thick piece in a padded mailer for a couple dollars. I'd be happy to microwave dry it, carve a bit and give you an opinion.

[sz]

If I may venture a guess here, I'd say it's not likely that many gun builders would gamble $400 on a blank that may or may not make a good stock.

$400 will get some very nice sugar maple from other vendors, so if we spent that amount we don't need to gamble.

If you have a good working and trusting relationship with a good builder, you might consider doing what Freddie Harrison did with a few builders.
Have someone make a nice gun on some of your wood, and then you and he sell the gun.  When it sells, you get your money.

You gamble that it makes a nice gun.
He gambles his labor, like he would on any "spec gun"

[rich pierce]

Steve that is great advice.

[Acer Saccharum]

Once you start pricing this, you should put it in the 'for sale' section. I understand at this point this is purely out of curiosity and suitability.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

I will put them in the classifieds if I buy a quantity of it. Right now I have two half stock blanks suitable for ML or bolt action; also two two-piece blanks from the same tree. By the way, this tree was cut from a yard, so it was probably planted, not native. The man who cut it has a degree in Forestry and insists it is Sikver maple.

[bob in the woods]

Perhaps it would be desirable for instruments ??  I have used big leaf maple for guitars.

[Kermit]

Bob is right. The best market may not be in stock blanks, but in tonewood or simply to slab it for furnituremaking. When I was still doing furnituremaking, I paid some hefty prices for highly figured woods, especially if slabbed 8/4 to 12/4 and live edge. Don't waste it on gunmaking naysayers just because you are into muzzleloaders. No offense meant, just looking for the highest and best use for some very nicely figured wood. Slab it and sticker it to dry for a couple of years amd you may have a nice walletfull.

[TNVolunteerEngineer]

Kermit has a good point. I once took down a cherry tree for a neighbor and had it sawn into slabs for potential gunstocks. A tablemaker happened to see it and traded me some curly cherry gunstock blanks for it.  Both of us thought we got a great deal!

[Kermit]

I once bought a 12' log of curly red maple based on photos and had it shipped east coast to west coast. Widest slabs were 23". Another time a 11' log of cherry with catspaw figure and shipped it PA to WA. They ran 22" for the widest pair. If I was still doing that for a living, I'd be hot to get your phone number! The market IS there.

[Dphariss]

Bob is right. The best market may not be in stock blanks, but in tonewood or simply to slab it for furnituremaking. When I was still doing furnituremaking, I paid some hefty prices for highly figured woods, especially if slabbed 8/4 to 12/4 and live edge. Don't waste it on gunmaking naysayers just because you are into muzzleloaders. No offense meant, just looking for the highest and best use for some very nicely figured wood. Slab it and sticker it to dry for a couple of years amd you may have a nice walletfull.

Maybe I am a
"naysayer"...
But its not based on supposition. I used to work in a the custom shop for a distributor and later  the maker of 19th c single shots. I have stocked guns in "Oregon Maple" back before I knew there was a difference. I will not buy maple grown west of the Mississippi if I know where it came from. Western maple is often more like pine with curl and I won't risk it, period. Now if I could LOOK at the wood and make a few cuts this is something else. But buying it unseen through the mail? Not a chance.
Is it valuable for other purposes and maybe even gunstocks?
Absolutely.
I love curly maple and this stuff looks wonderful. But its still about 8 pounds under Sugar maple for density.
There is too much time and effort in gunstocking to use low grade wood. A very skilled gunsmith told me this years ago and he is oh so right. I really like curly sugar maple so I use it for almost everything. I have a Winchester Highwall I stocked in maple. Years of working "modern" American walnut convinced me that while its OK for production guns since it has its own color, its a miserable stock wood in most cases is far inferior to Sugar Maple, in many cases it will not cut clean no matter what.
Dan