Author Topic: leather help needed  (Read 10756 times)

LURCHWV@BJS

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leather help needed
« on: October 03, 2013, 03:42:33 AM »
Hello all

  I need some help from those who work with leather
  As some know  I've been doing some bladesmithing.  A good knife needs a good sheath. The knife I can make. I don't have a clue when it comes to leather. What size in ounces leather would I need to make a durable sheath for a heavy Bowie?
  And the name of a good supplier would help also
  Thank you

  Rich

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 07:39:32 AM »
Here are the sources for supplies and tools and also some on-line tutorials that I have written and recommend...

http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_baseball.html
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_leatherstitch.html
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/tutorials/_stitchpony.html - this is how to make a stitch pony
http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/mexloop/_mexloop.html

Below are suppliers:
Veg/Bark Tan Leather:
Wickett & Craig - www.wickett-craig.com 
Ibest for most heavy sheaths get the 10/12 oz Skirting and have it split to 8/9 oz - they will split it to whatever size you like if need be at no chatge..
RJF Leather - http://rjfleather.com/content/index.php
Very nice double shoulders and sides - these are old style pit tanned hides from Portugal and are VERY nice and reasonable the only veg/bark tan leather I've used for the last 5 years and I've been a pro for 45 years

Dyes, all types of leather including some exotics, hardware, etc.:
Leather Unltd - http://www.leatherunltd.com/care/dye/dye.html
Leather Factory/Tandy
Springfield leather http://springfieldleather.com/

Linen Thread - 5 cord left or right hand twist is a good all purpose thread:
Campbell- Bosworth: http://campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=linen - I have not used the less expensive Hungarian thread myself so cannot offer an opinion whereas I have used the Barbour's for close to 50 years..

Tools: Cheap but OK:
Leather Factory/Tandy - the Craftsman brand

Tools: Better - Osborne and other better quality tools:
Campbell- Bosworth: http://campbell-bosworth.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=linen

Tools: Best:
Jeremiah Watt - www.ranch2arena.com
Expensive but worth it - made by a master saddle maker and a heck of a nice guy!
 
Gomph-Hackbarth Leather Tools
10754 N. Martineau Road
Elfrida, AZ 85610
520-642-3891
Hackbarthtools@hotmail.com
 
Robert Beard: http://robertbeardtools.com/index.html

 
Gore Tool Route 1
Box 306-B Caddo Mills
Texas 75135-9801
800-859-8338

 
McMillen Leather Tool Company
864 Four Waters Drive
Sunrise Beach, MO 65079
573-374-7880
 
Barry King
http://www.barrykingtools.com/

I can recommend all of the above having used them for several years (some several decades) - There are many other suppliers including Hidecrafters. Montana Leather, Oregon Leather, and others including some suppliers on EBay - as always with any unfamiliar suppliers it's caveat emptor.....
 
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

LURCHWV@BJS

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 03:04:58 PM »


   Mr,Burrows

  I am overwhelmed with this information.  Thank you ever so kindly


   Rich

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 05:38:00 PM »
Wow, I really appreciate you typing all that out as well !!  There were some real gems there I did not know. 

I appreciated the article on the stitching pony and especially some of the tips on how to size them to one self.  I never got around to making one for me as I didn’t know how to size one.  I thought about making a free standing stitching pony you sit on, but I never had room to store it.  I’ve been using an original Cavalry “Clam” for years that I think was originally Canadian Army Issue. 

I have never used a curved leather knife, as I’ve always gotten away with using utility knives with razor type blades.  I was wondering how one sharpened a curved leather knife.  Do you put a relief angle on each side and if so, what angle?  What is the angle you use to get the cutting edge? 

Thanks, Gus

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »
Ya'll are most welcome and no typing just cut and paste  ;) (you can teach and old dawg new tricks.

I use both straight and curved blades - the latter are technically throw always like the utility knife, but I re-sharpen them - mostly I just use a small, hard buffing wheel with rouge but they can be sharpened with half round or round stones as well. The curved blade is mostly for tight curves. I just follow the bevels when sharpening...
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2013, 11:33:33 AM »
Thanks Chuck,

Iwasn't accurately descrbing the curved knife I meant so I just looked up the correct name.  The correct name for the tool I meant is a round head knife.  I never got around to getting one of these, so I don’t know how to sharpen them.

Maybe my question ought to be is there an advantage to having a head knife for someone who is not a professional leather worker and only making a few shooting pouches or sheaths?  I’ve always gotten away with using replaceable blade utility knives and some exacto knife blades.  However, I’ve often wondered if there was something I was really missing by not having/using a Round Head Knife?
Gus

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 07:15:16 PM »
Gus some folks (mostly harness/saddle makers in my experience) love their round/head knives - I've owned several GOOD ones over the years and even had some custom ones made based on originals form the medieval era to the 1800's.

That said I no longer use one for various reasons (one I spent way too much time getting them scary sharp instead of cutting) and the fact much of my work today is done using soft leathers and I generally prefer good scissors for that. Back when I was much younger and worked with two very fine leather crafters - both saddler/harness makers - an old German and an old Englishman, they both had a wall full of them in different sizes and shapes...

my best advice try one and see what you think - on the other hand I did just make my self a small one for certain specific jobs including skiving certain parts - if you need a source for a good one (lots of old timers out there) or advice on making one let me know
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 10:17:58 PM »
I use a round/head knife quite often for long straight cuts, skiving and creating the various strap ends. I think for a few bags being made the time learning the tool would not be worth it. As Chuck eluded to in the prior post, those using them a lot like saddlers and harness makers would be more comfortable with them due to familiarity. For the thinner leathers I agree with a good pair of leather scissors. A pair of those and a good box cutter will go a long way on a few poucbes.

wet willy

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2013, 05:11:06 AM »
Leather thickness is described as "ounces," such as 6 oz leather. The designation uses a fraction with the thickness being the numerator and "64th" being the denominator. Thus 6 oz leather is 6/64" thick, or nearely 0.01." (I have no idea where this convention comes from!) In general, thicker is stiffer and stronger, thinner is more pliable and softer.

Keep in mind leather is an organic non-uniform material, which can swell or shrink with changes in humidity and/or temperature, so don't expect +/-  0.001" tolerance on thickness. And recognize this is the very nature of leather that gives its appeal.

Veg tanned leather can be wet-formed and stained easily, and I've used 6 - 8 oz leather for a sheath. Oil-tanned leather (mostly used for harnesses) does not wet- form or stain very well, but stays supple, as with a sweaty horse or rainy day. Some make fine hunting pouches and belts from all these materials.

Offline bluenoser

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2013, 04:11:27 PM »
Leather thickness is described as "ounces," such as 6 oz leather. The designation uses a fraction with the thickness being the numerator and "64th" being the denominator. Thus 6 oz leather is 6/64" thick, or nearely 0.01."

Wet Willy

Thanks for the info.  I had often wondered how the "ounce" designation related to thickness.  However, I think you have one too many zeros in the equivalent thickness.  Six sixty fourths is equivalent to just under 0.1"

Thanks again and please pardon the nit picking
Laurie

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2013, 07:20:17 PM »
The ounce designation may have an actual relation to ounces. Leather weighs about 50-55 pounds per cubic foot. Divide that down and what you get is that a one foot square piece of leather 1/64" thick would weigh around one ounce. Put 16 square feet  on a balance opposite a one pound weight and you know what you've got.

Just as with numerical gauge/bore designations (12 instead of 0.750" or 20 instead of 0.620") back in the day it was easier to weigh a  pound of things than to measure small increments of thickness. Especially with a non-uniform material like leather.

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2013, 08:25:20 PM »
The origin by ounce for leather came from actually weighing one square foot of the leather by thickness - the 1/64" inch per ounce was then extrapolated from that based on the averages - due to the inherent imprecision of such a method leather is almost always sold as 1/2 oz, 2/3 oz etc.
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 02:46:54 AM »
Chuck and James,

Thanks for your thoughts on a Head Knife, that was very informative.  Sounds like something I would not normally need for most of my leatherwork, except for use in the Artificer’s  Impression I am putting together. 

There is not a lot of information on Artificer’s assigned to the military, even the British Military, though I have found a few references to Artificers’ Kits that were sent with them from England.  Artificers were the “Jacks of all Trades” and maybe/probably “the Masters of none.”   Though the military or activated Militia would need repairs done on guns, leather goods (including horse tack), wagons, etc., etc. during a campaign;  it is not likely a Master of a trade would have done it most of the time and maybe at most Journeymen.  Of course when something “broke” was brought to them, it is probable they teamed up at times to fix things and worked “across their normal trades.”  (I realize this is speculation, but I’m trying to make it “informed speculation” and something that could at least be correct for the period.)

So if I may impose further, may I ask your gentlemen’s recommendation on a basic traveling kit needed for repair of leather items “in the field” in the middle and late 18th century?  If in the following kit you see something not needed or something I left out because I am not a professional leather worker, I would appreciate it.

1.  Leather for repairs/replacement of items as needed.
2.  Needles, both straight and curved.
3.  Linen thread and beeswax.
4.  Maybe two sizes of awls, small and medium?  Oh, and of course one or two sizes of curved awls. 
5.  Straight knife
6.  Portable stitching pony.  I don’t think a saddler’s clam is early enough, but don’t know?
7.  Not sure if they would have had stitching wheels in such a kit, though they did in the 19th century?
8.  Blackening or dye
9.  Leather “dressing.”  I think I may “cheat” on this one and use a modern dressing, but put it in a period container.  There is a least one dressing I have that looks like it was made from a “base” of beeswax, but protects the leather better.   Any recommendation on that? 
10.  Head Knife

 And this also leads me to ask if there is a particular kind of Head Knife that would be a good “one of a kind” knife for most of such repairs in the 18th century and what kind of handle would be correct?  I imagine a set of pinned on wood scales for handles?

BTW Chuck, I found it fascinating you have had at least one copy of a Medieval Head Knife made.  That’s really neat.   I believe we honor our trades and ourselves when we study the history of our trades and use older tools, as we can find something that was almost lost by not using them. 
Gus


Offline James Rogers

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 04:13:50 AM »
A lot to respond to so I will comment on a few things now and may get back later. I am sure Chuck will be able to answer all. The saddlers clam would be best but I am thinking in the back of my mind that may be what you are calling a stitching pony. A French one is pictured in Diderot's that has a hinge and is held between the legs at an angle. If I were doing English. I would use the self sprung type that is held vertically between the legs. I would also recommend a pricking iron to a wheel. I would think one would have had a background in either harness or saddle work or as a cobbler and although he may be repairing all manner of items, his tools would probably reflect his background. Check out the Dictionary of Leather-Working Tools, C. 1700-1950: And the Tools of Allied Trades by R. A. Salaman.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 04:19:40 AM »
If you dont want to mix your own dressing give Montana Pitch-Blend a try. Pine pitch, beeswax and real mink oil. Chuck recommended this some years ago IIRC.

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2013, 01:55:49 AM »
James,

Yes, what I refer to as a “Saddler’s Clam” is a stitching pony held cross wise between the legs.  OK, so if that is “French tradition,” then I’ll make and use the English version.  Good info. 

Thanks for the suggestion of the Pricking Iron vs a stitching wheel.  I googled about it and now know far more about one than I ever did before, as I have a rather large selection of stitching wheels.  One of mine is supposed to have been a Cavalry tool that has quite a few interchangeable wheels with it and in different stitches per inch.   Speaking of different stitches per inch; what would you suggest as the best one to buy to mostly work on pouches, bags, shoulder and waist belts, etc?  One thing I sort of “stumbled into” many years ago was one really has to have a waist belt on a person and THEN attach a sewn on sword scabbard, bayonet scabbard or double bayonet and sword frog, so it hangs properly and actually fits the owner’s body.   This is just one thing I can think of that would be a “normal” thing for me to do besides repair.

Didn’t know there was a recipe for a “period leather dressing.”   Does the Montana Pitch-Blend” have brewer’s pitch in it?

I REALLY appreciate the information.
Gus

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2013, 02:44:46 AM »
Gus - look up dubbin - there are various recipes some of which are true period ones. Montana Pitchblend, which is basically a type of dubbin with the addition of pitch. Their recipe uses local pitch from the western pines not brewer's pitch.

Pricking irons as noted by James would be more "correct" I believe for the pre-1800 era in particular as is a clam - for US makers either a French or English would be appropriate IMO. The leather crafters (cordwainers, purse/pouch maker's, cobblers, harness and saddle makers, sheath makers - almost all had their own guilds) of the time tended to use smaller, finer threads and tighter stitches per inch. For general us on finer lighter weight goods 12 SPI was fairly typical and on heavier goods such as harness 8 SPI was pretty common. For general purpose usage on things like belts, harness, etc or even on pouches for wear point, I like 8 SPI with either 18/4 linen thread (or the equivalent hemp size) . For finer goods 8 SPI with 25/3 linen is nice or even go to 10 SPI with the same thread. There's a new source for very fine, best quality French made linen thread which I plan on trying soon for the finer stitching
http://www.fineleatherworking.com/linen-thread
Book binding suppliers are also a good source for the finer threads, needles and awls (or just grind your awl blades smaller then polish, polish, polish.
You should also learn to make coad - both black and white rather than using just beeswax - once you've tried it on thread I'll bet you'll never want to go back to plain wax. There are many coad recipes for different usages from simple to complicated.

Well I'm getting called so more later.......
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2013, 03:55:38 AM »
Chuck,

You and James have no idea what a treat it is to get this information from professionals and ESPECIALLY on what would be period correct.  The information on thread size and spacing is well received.

I had no way to work with a saddler or other professional leather worker when I began and made MANY mistakes being self taught.  This takes me back over three decades when I was transferred back to VA in 1980, one of the first things I did was make a bee line to the cordwainer’s shop at CW.  I had been wanting to make leather sword scabbards, but did not know how to sew leather “end to end.”  I waiting patiently on the other tourists as I made my way to the front of the line and grabbed a Dice Cup and asked, “How do you make THIS stitch?” The Master of the Shop brought me behind the counter, showed me the curved awl and proceeded to teach me how to do it. He showed me how to hold the thread, but I never quite learned that skill.  I spent over four hours there that day and treasure that memory.
Gus

david64

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2013, 03:24:34 AM »
Thanks for all the helpful info and links!!

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2013, 07:46:27 PM »
Chuck mentioned in his sheath making tutorial that he uses belt sander belts to smooth the edges of the sheath prior to boning and polishing the edges.  (I know from experience you can only get the edge so smooth using knives to cut or skive the edges.) 

Boy do I feel silly for never thinking about that as I have almost always had a 1” belt sander even in my smallest home shops.  What I always did was wrap sandpaper around wood blocks that were shaped as needed and used them to sand the edges.   

So was something like a pumice stone the 18th century equivalent to the sanding belt for this job?
Gus

Offline Kermit

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 12:06:28 AM »
Holy smoke! This is about as much info on ghis topic as I've seen in one place at one time. My exposure has obviously been extremely limited.
 :-[
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 04:14:21 PM »
OK, because I really do try to take good advice, I’ve been trying to learn more about Pricking Irons. 

I’m GUESSING and hope I’ve found a source for ones that would be period correct for 18th century at the Joseph Dixon Company, UK ?  Link shown below:
 http://www.josephdixon.co.uk/products/One_Inch_Pricking_Irons.html

What I don’t know is what size to buy.  I have found original prick irons at different sites on the internet that seem to often be 1 ½ “ or more.  Is that size needed for shooting pouches and repair work?   Or is that size more common to make saddlery?  I notice the 1” wide ones here are available in 8 SPI as Chuck recommended.  Is this a good size to buy?  Their 1 ½” wide ones don’t come in 8 SPI, but do come in either 7 or 9 SPI. 

Because they make the pricking irons, it would seem a good idea to buy the correct fitting awl from Dixon as well, or am I over thinking this? 

Thanks for any assistance,
Gus

Offline James Rogers

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 05:43:23 PM »
Gus,
I sent you a PM.

Offline Artificer

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Re: leather help needed
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 06:54:05 PM »
James,
Thank you. TRULY enjoyed our chat and appreciate the information.
Gus