Author Topic: I think I Really Did it This Time (Read 9099 times)

draken · « **on:** October 13, 2013, 05:48:45 AM »

In the past, I usually applied a filler to my gunstocks (mostly walnut) prior to staining them. I had no experience with the PERMALYN products, but heard such good things about them on here that I decided to give them a try on my latest project; a Lancaster flinter with Albrecht characteristics. I wish now; that I hadn't.

Following the set of instructions that came with the PERMALYN products, I brushed a thin coat of sealer to just the carvings, and a couple of days later when I applied the stain I cold have cried. The sealed areas won't a take the stain and stand out like raw wood. Nothing I've tried so far to stain over the sealer has worked. Worst of all, someone had asked me to build this rifle for them.

Am I the first one to pull such a boner? Is there anything I can do to salvage this stock? I need help!!

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #1 on:** October 13, 2013, 05:54:40 AM »

Maybe Dave B can chime in here. A long soak in lacquer thinner or some other solvent might suck the permalyn out of the wood to where you can stain it. Sorry about your troubles.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #2 on:** October 13, 2013, 06:07:30 AM »

You could do a test piece to replicate your gun. Do some test carving, permalyn it, just like you did on the gun. Then stain. Then try a solvent to dissolve the permalyn enuff so the carving will take stain. Just a thought.

Make a couple of samples in case one solvent doesn't work, you have a fresh sample you can try another without having to wait for a new test piece to dry.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #3 on:** October 13, 2013, 06:18:17 AM »

I did a search for polyurethane strippers and came up with this http://t.homedepot.com/p/Klean-Strip-1-gal-KS-3-Premium-Stripper-GKS3/100144685

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #4 on:** October 13, 2013, 08:02:18 AM »

Second vote for lacquer thinner to potentially dissolve the Permalyn and suck it out of the wood. Perhaps try the stripper first, then lacquer thinner second - it's a combination of all the nastiest solvents available.

If neither of the above suck the finish out of the wood, you may try adding some aniline dye to some lacquer thinner, then rubbing that in to see if it takes (try on some scrap first)? It may dissolve enough of the sealer to get the dye into the wood, then the solvent will dissipate and you could then stain the rest of the rifle as you want.

If all else fails, stain the rest of the gun as you will, then try different shades of brown and black sharpie to get the carving - maybe go for an aged look with your finish. Best of luck, please let us know what you try.
-Eric

Paddlefoot · « **Reply #5 on:** October 13, 2013, 08:09:25 AM »

If lacquer thinner wont do it I would try MEK or Toluene. Be careful with them though, not nice to skin and not good to breathe at all. If those two wont take it off you are probably aaaahh out of luck.

AMartin · « **Reply #6 on:** October 13, 2013, 02:32:16 PM »

Before I would strip the sealer , I would apply a Trans-Tint dye ... it comes in a lot of colors and is very potent .
You can mix with almost any finish if needed .. This is how I make red varnishes .

In this case I would take a honey maple or a walnut brown and apply the dye straight onto the wood , it'll go right through the sealer .. if it's to dark , spritz it with denatured alcohol .. play with it ..

Permalyn sucks .. I used it once years ago ... yucky stuff .

Here's a link for more info

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?site=ROCKLER&filter=transtint&page=11448

Good luck ....

Allen

Dphariss · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2013, 06:26:50 PM »

Quote from: draken on October 13, 2013, 05:48:45 AM

In the past, I usually applied a filler to my gunstocks (mostly walnut) prior to staining them. I had no experience with the PERMALYN products, but heard such good things about them on here that I decided to give them a try on my latest project; a Lancaster flinter with Albrecht characteristics. I wish now; that I hadn't.

Following the set of instructions that came with the PERMALYN products, I brushed a thin coat of sealer to just the carvings, and a couple of days later when I applied the stain I cold have cried. The sealed areas won't a take the stain and stand out like raw wood. Nothing I've tried so far to stain over the sealer has worked. Worst of all, someone had asked me to build this rifle for them.

Am I the first one to pull such a boner? Is there anything I can do to salvage this stock? I need help!!

One of the various solvent based stains may penetrate enough to stain the wood. Nothing traditional is likely too work well.

You may need to try an epoxy stripper to get enough off/out of the wood to allow it to stain.

When staining stocks you bring the wood to is final form and surface finish, THEN its stained and THEN its oiled. I don't know of any writing on the subject that says seal then stain. If the stock is sealed its not going to stain properly.

Permalyn is plastic according to the maker and holder of the trademarked name.

Dan

necchi · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2013, 07:21:01 PM »

Good advise above about trying solvents.
But someone should point out;

Quote from: draken on October 13, 2013, 05:48:45 AM

Following the set of instructions that came with the PERMALYN products, I brushed a

There is no "instructions" to use sealer before the stain.
They do say to allow the stain to dry before sealing or finish;

Quote

If you stained the wood with our Antique Wood Stain, allow a minimum of 4 hours dry time before applying any sealer or finish. This is to insure the solvents used in the stain do not interfere with the curing of the finish coats.

http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/sealer_instruction.htm

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2013, 08:59:42 PM »

If you don't want to try the solvents, you can use an historically correct finish as in Violin varnish. You can buy the components or the finished solution from Kremer. Since you will not be able to stain, you will need to use both amber and red violin varnish. You apply the amber first, then apply the red. You may have to apply more amber base over the sealed areas.

drago · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2013, 10:07:22 PM »

Sorry about the mess. A lot of lacquer thinners are not very strong and you may need to add some acetone to make it hotter. There is usually some already in it.

Kermit · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2013, 10:08:08 PM »

So you bought a product you'd never used before and without any trials you applied it to a final product destined for a customer? Are you the only one to ever "pull such a boner?" Nope--join the ever growing club. Some lessons come hard.

eddillon · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2013, 10:30:44 PM »

Take a white cotton dish towel or cloth. Soak with acetone. Place soaked cloth over effected area. Wrap foil around the cloth and stock. Lay the stock horizontally with cloth on the underneath side. Let it soak for 15-20 minutes. Remove. Wipe with clean cotton cloth. Repeat the whole process as needed. Good luck!

necchi · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2013, 11:22:42 PM »

Quote from: Kermit on October 13, 2013, 10:08:08 PM

Are you the only one to ever "pull such a boner?" Nope--join the ever growing club. Some lessons come hard.

Amen to that !
I'm up too lesson #506,, and still learning,, the hard way,,

WadePatton · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2013, 12:34:22 AM »

Yeah, reading directions will screw you up nearly every time...

Only way to avoid all mistakes is to never do anything. Ever.

I'd try acetone.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #15 on:** October 14, 2013, 03:43:56 AM »

Quote from: WadePatton on October 14, 2013, 12:34:22 AM

Only way to avoid all mistakes is to never do anything.

Good advice Wade!

Dogshirt · « **Reply #16 on:** October 14, 2013, 03:48:33 AM »

If we don't make mistakes, we don't learn!

Nate McKenzie · « **Reply #17 on:** October 14, 2013, 05:31:40 AM »

I've had good luck dissolving permaylin finishes with Homer Formby's Furniture Refinisher. Like mentioned above, you better try a test piece first.

Jerry V Lape · « **Reply #18 on:** October 14, 2013, 06:40:52 AM »

Here is a method that works and is used on high quality old shotguns etc. The big difference for a long rifle is going to be getting a long enough pan to hold the stock. This method is well known on a highly regarded double gun board and the instructions are quoted below:

Method: "Get a disposable aluminum roaster pan at the supermarket that is large enough for the stock. Stop by your Home Depot or whatever and get a gallon of acetone and a gallon of alcohol. If the stock has a plastic finish you might want a can of some paste stripper too. Use that first if the outside finish requires it. If the stock has a varnish or oil finish the acetone will lift that with no problem. Then toss the stock in the roaster and pour in the acetone (it will also neutralize the paste stripper). Cover the wood until it floats. Then pull off a good length of aluminum foil and make a cover for the "tank", sealing it as well as possible. Be aware that acetone is highly volatile and smoking the cigar over the top of it is not recommended. I let the things soak for several days, turning the wood over a couple times a day. When you feel like you're tired of that, and the acetone looks like it has quit changing color, pour the acetone back in the can, rinse the roaster out with alcohol, and then soak the stock in the alcohol just like you did in the acetone. When you yank the baby out of the alcohol bath it will be CLEAN! And you can seal it and refinish it anyway you want after you let it dry a couple days."

Long John · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2013, 04:04:23 PM »

Friend,

Most of the stock strippers contain cuastic bases like lye. these are tough on wood. Try to get some methylene chloride. You can obtain this at a good hardware store. Methylene choride is particularly good at depolymerizing most of the oil type finishes. I have never used it on Permalyn but that would be my first agent I would try. MC will not adversely affect the wood but will adversely affect you! Use only in a very well ventillated space and minimize your exposure to it.

Best Regards,

JMC

WadePatton · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2013, 05:21:24 PM »

Quote from: Long John on October 14, 2013, 04:04:23 PM

Friend,

Most of the stock strippers contain cuastic bases like lye. these are tough on wood. Try to get some methylene chloride. ...

JMC

I hadda look that one up. Found that it's also called "Dichloromethane" AND

are you ready for this?...is the "heat engine" that makes the "drinking bird" novelty work. Haven't seen a drinking bird in many years. Learned my thing for the day!

draken · « **Reply #21 on:** October 17, 2013, 04:12:50 AM »

Many thanks for all the input, guys. The same night I posted my dilema my computer had a major malfunction, and I've just now gotten it back up and running. Lots of good suggestions posted during my absence, and I feel confident I'll be able to fix my boo-boo.

Again, many thanks, guys.

Paddlefoot · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2013, 07:56:37 PM »

John suggested Methylene Chloride and that very well may work. You'll probably have a hard time finding it labeled that way. Look for "Aircraft Paint Stripper". The active ingredient in that is MC. Read the label carefully. Once you put it on, don't keep brushing or dabbing at it. It forms its own seal once applied (skins over) and if you keep brushing or dabbing at it the skin never forms and the stuff is not as effective. Water neutralizes it.

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Author Topic: I think I Really Did it This Time (Read 9099 times)

necchi

eddillon

necchi

Dogshirt