S Hawken flintlock

[galamb]

Over the past few years I have read quite a bit on Hawken rifles (Jake and Sam) and there is a lot of discussion out there with regards to flintlock versions - whether they existed (must have) but none seem to have been seen (or at least none that I have come across in any other discussion) in original (or as original a can be) condition.

I tripped over an article exploring of the "artistry" of the Hawken family by William H Reisner Jr. which contained a number of black and white photos of rifles built by the various Hawkens.

Anyhow, there were 4 pics of a Sam Hawken flintlock that he (Mr. Reisner) suggested was built either in Hagerstown or Xenia. Unfortunately, his discussion was about the artistic features and contained zero information on specs.

So here's the pics for those who are interested.

[rich pierce]

Thanks for posting this.  Most figure the Hawken brothers made flint rifles early in their careers.  Whether or not they made many flint, large caliber mountain or plains rifles early in the fur trade era is a matter of discussion. Depending on the heart of the individual, either they woulda coulda musta made some, maybe many, or mighta made a few.

[galamb]

I thought this was interesting since I have seen many posts on various sites with individuals looking to build/procure a "correct" Hawken in flint - and they are usually talking about Jake or Sam.

While this looks quite a bit like his fathers rifles and nothing like the brothers famous Plains rifles, it is a "correct" S Hawken flint...

[Herb]

Thanks.  Can you give us a reference to the original article?

[tomjanemc]

Has any contemporary gunmakers built their idea of what William Ashley's 68-69 caliber flint Sam Hawken might have looked like?

[galamb]

I do have the entire article in PDF format and managed to find the link.

http://americansocietyofarmscollectors.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/B039_Reisner.pdf

There is some decent pictures of rifles built by Jake and Sam's other brothers. Like I mentioned though, the author, who was born in Hagerstown, was looking more at the artistic and historical aspect of the rifles built by the "family".

Anyhow, if anyone has trouble finding/obtaining the file from the link you can drop me an email (galamb@kingston.net) and I'll flash a copy out to you.

[mr. no gold]

This is a great summary of the Hawken legacy. Can we possilby add this to the Virtual Library, to the other treatises on makers and families? Thanks.
Dick

[galamb]

I found a couple contradictory pieces of history/information based on numerous other accounts (suspect that since the writer was from the "hometown" and was working on this from a history pov, some of his writing may have been skewed in that light while not totally incorrect), but just the collection of rifle pictures with some history to go along with them is rare.

I literally tripped over it while doing research on Christian Hawken (my next build) - I take the "profiler" approach and try and get into the "head" of the original builder, even though at best my rifle will only be "inspired by", not going for a duplicate (I hunt with my guns (so sit looking at them for hours in the stand) and go for something "I" would have ordered from the builder and something that they woulda/coulda built for me).

This Sam Hawken struck me as perhaps a very early "solo" piece - not simply because it's flint, but very indicative of a Maryland gun during perhaps the first decade of the 1800's (just looking at the architecture it could have been one of his fathers or John Armstrong's guns).

Since he returned to Maryland briefly in 1821 (from Ohio) when his father died, before going off to St. Louis, and, given he was born in 1792, he may have been fairly young when this rifle was built (cool).

Only wish there had of been an example of either Nicholas or Wolfgang Hachen's guns - the "original Hawken brothers" - I guess we can't have everything 

[smylee grouch]

If you look in Jim Gordons books you will find more than one Hawken that has been converted to percussion from flint.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Smylee, there are those who will argue that the rifles currently bear locks that, yes, have been converted from flint to percussion, but the question is, are the locks replacement or original to the rifle?  In view of the time frame of the Hawken shop in St. Louis, I am one of those who believe, even without physical confirmation, that in the early years of production, Jake, and likely Sam as well, made flint rifles.

[smylee grouch]

I agree Taylor, Jake was in St. Louis early enough to have made flintlock rifles IMHO. Mr. Gordons book contains images of other, non St. Louis made guns by several different Hawken family members including one by Christian alone and one by Christian and Jake. Alot of food for thought in Mr. Gordons book. Going through his museum will really make you think and wonder and probably be late for your next appointment as the place is an absolute treasure. Well worth the effort in going there.

[JTR]

I've always thought as well, that some early St Louis Hawkens were likely made as flintlocks.
But keep in mind when seeing a lock plate that has been converted from flint to percussion, that some early percussion period guys converted existing flint lock mechanisms to percussion locks Before installing them on the rifle they were making. So just because the lock shows flint to percussion conversion telltales, it doesn't mean the lock was actually ever used as a flint.
Lots of not easily explained sticky wickets in that early transition period.

John

[Don Stith]

If you look in Jim Gordons books you will find more than one Hawken that has been converted to percussion from flint.

There is the eastern style rifle on page 363 with the bad name stamp and ill fitting lock. I don't see a  Plains rifle with a flint plate though.
 What page did I miss?

[smylee grouch]

I think you are right about that Don but I was thinking any Hawken flint gun as the original post didnt say St. Louis made Hawken mountain rifles. There are three volumes to Mr. Gordons series and there are Hawken guns shown in two of them.

[smylee grouch]

Volume II and Volume III of the three volume series by Gordon have several early Hawken guns , (at least 10 ) in volume II. Most of those in Vol. II are by other members of the Hawken family and most in Vol. III are by Jake and Sam.

[Loudy]

This has been an interesting discussion.  Thank you GALAMB for the link to the Hawken article.  It's intriguing to speculate on the existence of the elusive flintlock Hawken Plains rifle.  It's become the "Big Foot" of the American Longrifle collecting world... at least here in the Midwest.  I've heard lots of talk about it's existence, but I've never seen a verifiable one myself.  Regardless, I'm firmly in the camp with those that believe they must have existed.  I truly hope one turns up someday.  Until then, we can continue to envision what one may have looked like.   

Many of you may be familiar with Curt Johnson's great set of books entitled "Gunmakers of Illinois".  On page 133 of volume one, Curt includes photos and a lengthy discussion regarding a 50 cal. fullstock rifle made by gunsmith Philip Creamer.  It is believed that this rifle was made during the period 1815-1835 at Creamer's shop on the East side of the Mississippi just across from St. Louis.  It has been converted from flintlock to percussion.  Philip Creamer came to the St. Louis area from Maryland in about 1808.  As an interesting sidenote, young Jim Bridger worked for a short period of time as a gopher in Creamer's shop before running off for more interesting pursuits up the Missouri RIver.  Anyway, I know it's not a Hawken, but to my minds-eye this rifle is a good example of what an early transitional flintlock fullstock Hawken Plains rifle might have looked like.  Someday I want to recreate this rifle myself... in flintlock.  I think I'll call it my "Sasquatch" rifle! 

Mark Loudenslager
St. Louis, Missouri   

[Dphariss]

Smylee, there are those who will argue that the rifles currently bear locks that, yes, have been converted from flint to percussion, but the question is, are the locks replacement or original to the rifle?  In view of the time frame of the Hawken shop in St. Louis, I am one of those who believe, even without physical confirmation, that in the early years of production, Jake, and likely Sam as well, made flint rifles.

I agree.

Given the unpopularity of the percussion system with some in the west as late as the 1840s, yeah its documented.
Then the actual time line of the percussion cap we use today, it very likely that Jake was making rifles in St Louis before the cap design was standardized (in the mid-late 1820s IIRC) and widely available HERE, its impossible for them to NOT have made flintlocks. Then there is the Smithsonian FS Flintlock  Hawken made by Sam near the end of his career. Its not debatable whether they made flintlocks, there is at least one surviving rifle. Crudely converted to percussion by screwing a drum in the flintlock breech and hacking the pan and frizzen mount off the waterproof lock plate. It has a single lock bolt flintlock lock, any flintlock with a single lock bolt lock can easily be converted to percussion by installing a patent breech then perhaps replacing a worn lock with a new one that will fit or clean up the old inlet. Now the original FL rifle is almost undetectable, especially if the cock stop is on the fence and not the lockplate.
How many they may have made is a subject for debate perhaps but this is simply not something we, at this late date can determine. But to assume the rifles made for early trip up the Missouri etc were ALL or even mostly percussion does not fit the "profile" of the time.



So far as I know the earliest date for a surviving  Hawken is the 1836 dated Silver mounted rifle in Cody. The Modena rifle with the 1833 date is suspect due to the styling of the rifle. Not saying its bogus but the rifle is stocked as a later J&S rifle not a 1833 version when viewed with the Petersen rifle and the Silver mounted rifle that appear to have been built about the same time. Really we don't know when the 1833 was put on the Modena Rifle or by whom could have been put on by the man Modena gave the rifle to ? And with its original lock and barrel the Modena rifle might have looked more like the J&S rifle the MT Historical Society owns which probably mid-1830s by the breech design. We are not going find out when Jake and Sam adopted the long tang and trigger bar either...
In the early 1830s the American Fur Company was specifically NOT ordering percussion rifles from Henry. They specified flintlocks only.
Dan

[Old Ford2]

Great discussion!
Especially for my new quest.
Fred