Collecting Kentucky Rifles and American History... a movement

[Mark Elliott]

I didn't see anything in the rifle shooting merit badge requirements that indicated flintlocks where a problem but I would have to be a NMLRA certified instructor and an NRA certified range officer to be a merit badge counselor.    It is not likely that either of those things are going to happen.  I don't have the time or money for that.   I can give a few hours every other week as I am.  

I sent the district executive an e-mail offering my services.   We will see what he says.   I suspect that the conditions and requirements will be unacceptable to me.   As I remember,  they were 30 years ago when I asked my father about helping out.  

I don't know what the answer is.    Everybody wants volunteers, but they want them on their terms.  

Mark

[gibster]

There is another organization out there besides the Boy Scouts and the 4-H that could be a rich resource for new and/or re-newed interest in muzzle loading and possibility collecting with future generations.  It is called Royal Rangers.  Some here may already know about them.  Typically, it is sponsored through the Assembly of God churches.  When my son was young, I was involved with them and it is a great organization with lots of emphasis on frontier life and skills.  The leadership also has an organization called Frontiersman Camping Fellowship (FCF).  The FCF is hosting a National Rendezvous in Eagle Rock Missouri in July for the Royal Rangers with shooting, hawk throwing, knife throwing, archery and more. So they are already trying to expose the youth to what we are discussing here.  Do a Google search of them and you will see that they are both organizations that share the same interests as we do with the history of the longrifle and everything that goes long with it.  Most Assembly of God churches have a Royal Ranger outpost and may be open to having someone come in and share information on the history of the longrifle.  Here is a link to their websites:
http://royalrangers.com/events/nationalrendezvous/
http://www.nationalfcf.com/

[bama]

You are correct in that the BSA organization has become big business. You have to go to the invidual troops which are pretty much run by volunteers and you will find a warmer receptio. As a troop we probably did things that the national organization would have frowned upon. You never know until you ask.

The Royal Rangers are another good group. Not as well known as the BSA but still a great group with a lot of good young men that could be reached out to.

My gun club sponsors a youth group. As such we teach 3 position air rifle, small bore and high power. The club loans equipment to the juniors for training and for shooting matches. The ammo is provided free of charge to these juniors. We always have a steady stream of juniors going through our program. The local gun clubs that have junior programs could be another avenue to spark interest.

[rich pierce]

Lets assume we have enough information on the Boy Scouts now.

My thoughts on the good discussion so far: Collectors and shooters are different breeds.  There are some folks who do both but there are sure a lot who mostly do one or the other.

It may be that strategies to get more people interested in collecting may run at cross purposes to each other sometimes.  One motive to get more interested is to preserve or enhance the value of existing collections.  Another is to ensure the historic firearms and their history are preserved and promote the love of history of our country for future generations to cherish.

To an outsider, it seems that two important factors are desire to collect and and ability to collect interesting arms and accoutrements.  Desire must be there but then the means must be there also.  For a beginner, it may feel like collecting is unachievable because of the prices of desirable guns, or risky because they lack expertise in collecting.  Some with limited means collect guns with regional interest, or from a slightly later period.  An article (one probably exists in the KRA somewhere) on how to get into collecting would be helpful.  Stories of $25 longrifles in the 1950s are just discouraging for those getting into the game now.  Every here maybe someone or a group could put together a "how to get started in collecting longrifles" guide.  I'm pretty sure we have a lot of "could be" collectors right here.

[Spotz]

I will premise this post with the statement that I am an aberration--a collector since age 12 and now in my early 30s.  Here are my thoughts:

1.  I noticed that there were several young attendees at the shows this year (more so than in the past) but I go to the shows, talk to the people I know, look for items that interest me, buy a few items and go home.  There should be a mechanism whereby there are more personal connections in collector groups.  Perhaps a mentoring program for members under age 40 could be established.  We need to break the mold of collectors that are territorial by nature. I find a lot of dealers at gun shows to not be all that interested in who is looking at their wares or meeting people.

2.  People under age 40 have smart phones.  They don't buy newspapers in print and magazine form and prefer as much digital media  as possible.  Collector groups need to consider using Facebook, Twitter and social media.  The ALR is a step toward technology.  You can't fight it or change it--this is the world we live in.

3.  Marginal and overly restored rifles are going to drop in the short term as collections come to market.  The sky is not falling.  It is my understanding that similar discussions of market crashing took place 30 to 40 years ago when today's collectors were in there 20s and 30s.  In 40 years, I will be posting on the third generation of ALR fearing the lack of young collectors.  We need to teach more about rifles and organizations need to go on a PR campaign to teach people about the rifle and its place in history.   

[HIB]

You know Spotz I couldn't agree with you more.  I was mentored by the best and have tried to repay all that knowledge in the things I do for the ALR members. I have one problem though and I'll give you two good examples of a recent series of offers I have made via the ALR site.

The first being awhile back when research was a major topic. I offered to share my experience and may have worded it wrong but offered to assist young/new researchers with a 'Road Map'.  I expected 20-25 requests but only received 3 that were sincere. The others [one in particular] were looking for the couch version of what I had to offer. Let me call it 'instant gratification' or 30 minutes of effort to gain 50 years experience wrapped up in a short conversation or e-mail. When these several individuals learned they had to get off their ass and wear down a bunch of shoe leather I never heard from them again. I am currently working with the three who have demonstarted a passion. It is the greatest reward I can describe and matches your suggestion perfectly. I truely wish the four or five of us that do this now on a regular basis could be multiplied 20 fold. The ALR guys might put together a list of volunteers who know there is no such thing as a "dumb question".

Now for the second example:  I recently posted the Kentucky Rifle Foundation had a canned [bad word] presentation of the importance of the American Long Rifle in the development of this wonderful country we live in. One request and it was from a KRA member who recognized how much easier a 'power point ' presentation was than the old 35mm slide show the KRF introduced to the collecting community 10 years ago.

I don't know the answer to the above two issues other than keep doing the same and realizing the success rate does not exceed 30%.

And now we have the poor results of the Julia auction to deal with and discuss but absolutely no one other than myself has come out and directly mentioned 'Quality of product'. I think I even slip streamed it myself by using the terminology 'Worth' in my analysis. Mark Elliott did a nice follow up to what I wrote and he is really leading the charge in this considerable dilemma. But you are absolutely correct again in stating the sky is not falling. In fact if the new and/or old had the determination they say they have they would now [this very hour] be in contact with the auction house to do an 'after hours' bid.  It's a fact, 9 or 10 of the guns listed in my analysis were actually no bid or did not meet the reserve items. They did not sell and the owner will have to pay a premium to get them back as the expense of advertising and marketing the auction itself is buried in the 'sellers premium'.

How did it happen?  I'll lose a great number of my friends if I provide the actual particulars but you got real close in your personal statement. I commend you for making mention that these sell offs are a regular occurrence every 15-30 years. It's a more money than brains issue.

So what to do?  Develope your idea of a mentor program which in some ways already exists but not in the dimension you suggest. Lead the charge and I will do my part.

And what else? Better get on the magic machine and provide Julia with an alternative bid for those guns that did not sell. Don't expect a fire sale but I guarantee all realistic bids will be considered and the potential of a fair market value can be           achieved. Regards, HIB

[eddillon]

Great thread.  I too am of the older generation.  Late in life I found the KRA website.  The long rifle is my passion.  I was anxious to join the KRA.  Not knowing members makes it difficult to join.  kind of feel that there is an elite attitude to filter out the inexprienced and not knowledgeable.  Bad idea .  How do we go about sharing  generationally if we exclude those who wish to carry on but don't yet have the knowledge?  The movement must welcome new members to the community without making it difficult to be part of it. 

[vtbuck223]

 Quoting Rich P.   "Some with limited means collect guns with regional interest".

As an interloper here I could say a  great deal....but will limit myself to this  quick point.  I very much appreciate this website and the expertise offered....but this is a "very focused fraternity".  "American Longrifles" really means Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifles and the immediate surrounding areas. One only need look at the library to confirm this.  How many New England Longrifles are there for instance.... just a few. I recently went to visit the Terry Tyler collection at the Shelburne Museum in Vermont....I'm pretty sure these Vermont made underhammers would qualify as an "American Longrifle".....I doubt there are many in the library here....but they were made prolifically throughout this region at one time. I understand that to the serious kentucky longrifle collector....these "regional" rifles aren't that appealing....and therefore basically get lip service. It is  also true that these "regional rifles" are typically more affordable and available....but again not very celebrated.  If you  want to encourage people from different regions to be a part of the ALR fraternity....I would suggest  identifying state representatives, groups, chapters...getting people involved who will celebrate the regional history and encourage others locally to get involved. Yes....the regional rifles might as a result be somewhat elevated in interest....but in the long run the Pennsylvania Rifle will as well.

[Dennis Glazener]

If longrifle researchers want their research to reach beyond the present (shrinking?) audience of collectors (and I am not sure that they do, but I was picking up on Fred's provocative question), then they will have to be pro-active in getting their research where the main researchers of American history, American material culture, etc., are--and that is to say, in the universities. Or find ways, despite the difficulty of the business model, to make it available for free online. To continue to produce very high-priced books that are exchanged, for the most part, only among collectors is to ensure the invisibility of all this incredible research and other work that goes into these publications to anyone other than collectors. To get these books into university libraries (or public libraries), however, is to make sure that they will be permanently available to researchers. That's all I'm saying.

I think that Historical Societies and genealogical groups are a great place to share the longrifle culture with the public. In my case it was purely accidental, in the course of doing research on my Gillespie gun maker family I discovered that there was a tremendous number of people that wanted information on this family but didn't have the time nor expertise to do the research. I belonged to an online genealogy group that targeted the NC counties where my Gillespie family lived and produced mountain rifles. Our online group started having annual Heritage Day events in the county and I was asked to display, demo and talk about my family. It was a hit and every year that we held those events my booth continued to be one of the most popular ones in the event. I then started to get calls from Historical Societies and local museums to do my gun maker program. When the locals in the county decided to print a second volume to the County Heritage book I was asked to write one of the feature articles on the lives of my gun maker family.

My point is that with the vast amounts of research that many of the longrifle collectors, local historical and genealogy groups would problem welcome an offer for presenting this information to the public. Its a great opportunity to spread the knowledge of local gun maker families. Another side benefit is to some of the interesting guns, stories brought in by some of the locals.
Dennis

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Anybody familair with Facebook and Twitter? Woudl that help us in this issue?? I personally don't use tham , but Curt's video on "You Tube" brought that to mind. Does anyone else have video that would be appropraite...shows, exhibits, lectures or presentations ?
Hurricane

[WElliott]

eddillon, if you will email me with information about where you live, I will be glad to look in my KRA directory and if I know any members who live in your vicinity I could send them your contact information to follow up.  Most KRA members are delighted to meet other collectors and to sponsor serious students/collectors for membership.

vtbuck, while the majority of KRA members continue to focus on Pennsylvania longrifles, there has been a growth in recent years of membership in other states with a "regional" (non-Pennsylvania) collecting and research interest.  In the ALR library, you will find a number of rifles from the South and Midwest.  The moderators of this site regularly encourage participants to submit quality pictures of longrifles to the library committee for possible inclusion in the online library.  Don't hesitate to submit pictures of longrifles for consideration.

Wayne

[R.Baitinger]

 I REALLY THINK IT IS GREAT THAT ALL THESE  IDEAS HAVE COME IN THE LAST FEW DAYS AND SO MANY PEOPLE ARE GIVING IT SO

MUCH THOUGHT. I HAVE ALWAYS COLLECTED GUNS,BUT IT WAS NOT UNTIL ABOUT 45 YEARS OLD THAT I GOT INTO LONGRIFLES.

MY GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER MADE GUNS, J.S. BURSON . CURT JOHNSON FOUND MY FIRST ONE AND WITH THE HELP OF SOME

OF THE OTHER PRINCETON,ILLINOIS GROUP, I NOW HAVE NINE TOTAL AND A BUFFALO RIFLE HIS BROTHER MADE.PICTURES ARE ALL 

 NOW IN THE DISPLAY AREA. I THINK WE NEED TO GET MORE OPEN AND LET PEOPLE SEE WHAT WE SEE IN THE BEAUTIFUL GUNS,

POWDER HORNS, AND OTHER GREAT THING AT THE SHOWS. WE HAVE PLACES LIKE FRIENDSHIP,INDIANA THAT ARE LIKE A HIDDEN

SECRET THAT IS SO NEAT AND A GREAT AMOUNT OF THINGS GOING ON. I BELIEVE THE NRA SHOW IS DOWN IN INDIANAPOLIS IN

2014, THAT MIGHT BE A PLACE TO HAVE A TABLE. SHOW GUNS,HORNS , AND PASS OUT INFORMATION ON OUR FORUMS.

                                                                                                                                     BOB BAITINGER

 

[bama]

I to believe that getting into the digital world will help let the world know what the KRA is about and the collecting world that is available to those with interest.

Collecting is a very big hobby, you can collect just about anything, you name it and someone is collecting it. My wife sews, she just got back from a 3 day seminar that was held at one of the local hotels here in Birmingham. These seminars are put together by the companies that sell the sewing equipment, and the people that make anything that is sewing related. These siminars travel all over the country. While at the seminar my wife met several women that collect sewing machines and some of these machines bring some serious bucks.

I said all of that to say this. This was a well advertise event via the internet. The people that run the event have an extensive e-mail list of women that like to sew and each one gets an e-mail notification. They are on FaceBook and Tweeter and Pinterest and anywhere else they think they can can reach potential customers.

Now our hobby in collecting Kentuckies is a little different in that we do not produce any thing to sell that someone needs to produce a item. Our Items are produced and no more are being made and the ones that are made are in the hands of existing collectors. To become one of us Kentucky collectors you have to buy your way in which is neither cheap or easy because we are a pretty closed organization. If you don't know a collector you can not get in, if you don't have an existing collection you can not get inso if ther are no rifles to collect or they are to expensive to buy and you are not sure they are worth the price then why even bother getting in the KRA or become a Kentucy collector?

This is why I think the KRA and the CLA should join forces. I have said this before on this board and I think that it did not set to well with some folks but the CLA is producing the next round of collectable Kentuckies. Now these contemporary Kentuckies will never be collected in the same light as those that were made in the founding of our great nation. The old Kentuckies will always be on a collection level that will be a step above. The new Kentuckies can be the method that could be used to grow these collectors.

There are a number  of builders in the CLA that are producing some very fine rifles and pistols. These can be obtained by entry level collectors and they do not have to know someone to get into the CLA, or have an existing collection or have a lot of knowledge to obtain a decent rifle or pistol. The CLA is producing a product that can be advertised and sold.

I think that the KRA having a presnce at the CLA show has gone a long way in help pave the way for an eventual partenership. I started out building Kentucky rifles 40 years ago becasue I did not have access to any originals and I wanted something other than a CVA or Thompson Center to shoot. After trying to build Kentuckies for about 30 years I finally started making some contacts with some collectors that had some originals. Over the last 5 years I decided that I would become a collector but it took me 30 years to get to that point. I am still an entry level collector but at least I have started.

I think if I had the opportunity to have an organization like the CLA 30 years ago and the KRA had a presence there I would have become a collector much sooner. It has been fantastic to have the KRA presence at the CLA show. The first CLA show that the KRA was there I saw more original Kentuckies than I had ever seen in my life, what a fantastic opportunity. I really want to thank all that had a part in making that happen.

This is a forum that can be advertised, this is a forum that pruduces a product, this is a forum that provides the means for the education required that is needed to become a collector of original Kentuckies.

To make this whole thing grow will require some changes that may be hard for some and then maybe the time is right. Either way I don't think that either organization is going away as I think that we will always attract enough youth to keep them alive. What I don't want to see happen is for the collecting of Kentuckies to become strickly a for profit only business. I think that is what happened at the James Julia Auction. I am not against making money on a Kentucky but I don't want to see collecting Kentuckies just be for that reason. I hope that we can grow collectors that truely love the art and history of the Kentucky Rifle and that is what I would love to see evolve out of the KRA/CLA association.

Sorry for being long winded and I hope I offended no one.