Author Topic: Georgia frame buckle question  (Read 7350 times)

Offline Clark Badgett

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Georgia frame buckle question
« on: November 25, 2013, 01:42:23 AM »
Does anyone have any idea how far back the "Georgia Frame" buckle of Civil War fame dates? I haven't been able to find any info through internet searches beyond the normal Civil War stuff. It would seem to be a rather antiquated design even by 1860s standards.
Here is a picture link-> http://www.relichunt.net/BucklePlates/GaFrame1.jpg
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2013, 02:33:04 AM »
Though I checked more than these references, I went page by page in “American Military Insignia, 1800 – 1851 by J. Duncan Campbell and Edgar M. Howell.  No mention of them in that book in that time period.

However, they are listed in “Plates and Buckles of the American Military 1795 to 1874” by Sydney Kerkis.  Though often usually CALLED a Georgia Frame Buckle today, they were the most used belt buckle by all the Confederate Armies.  The exact origin is unknown and there is no contemporary buckle of either American or European origin.  It has been suggested that the “Orders for the Military Board for the State of Mississippi,” dtd 1861,  MAY be the origin, though they prescribed for Enlisted Men “a plain brass buckle.” 

Bottom line the buckle appears to have only been a Civil War war time “make do” fabrication and not anything earlier than that.

Gus

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2013, 03:33:49 AM »
You are right. It is the most easily documentable buckle in use by CS forces everywhere. I find it a bit funny that the South would adopt a buckle out of the blue that is even more primative than anything that has been found from all of the past of the history of this planet. Even Roman soldiers were issued the normal frame and tongue style that is more familiar to most of us.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2013, 03:42:08 AM »
Actually I always thought the "Georgia" frame buckle was inspired genius in design.  Easy to cast, no moving parts to make or add in manufacture, plenty strong enough to support a fully loaded cartridge box and bayonet and scabbard and frog as well as a cap box, almost indestructable.  That last point especially means a HUGE amount to me because I have been amazed many times by how Marines and other GI's can break things.  Grin.
Gus

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2013, 07:16:54 AM »
Definately a good design, just amazing some other more primative society did think of it first.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2013, 01:20:41 AM »
Well, perhaps more primitive societies didn’t do it for a few reasons.

The Georgia frame buckle requires a fairly good bit of brass to make compared to common 18th century buckles for example, though there were some horse buckles then that were fairly robust.  However, if one could afford to buy and keep a horse where the fancier buckles were used, they had the money to spend on more robust brass buckles.  

It still amazes me how “delicate” looking the “double D” buckles used on the cartridge box supporting strap ends were in the 18th century and some of them were made for 3” wide straps in the mid 18th century.  

However, there were some brass buckles that had a lot of brass in them from the 17th as well as early to mid 18” century, though they were often used as adjustment buckles on what must have been EXPENSIVE over the shoulder sword hangers.  

The cost of brass was still much higher than iron throughout the 18th century and the early 19th century.  No doubt part of the reason so many “delicate” looking buckles had Iron tongues.  ( I sometimes marvel at the way they saved a tiny bit of money here and there on things.  Sort of like going into an Ice Cream Parlour and eating a giant banana split to get the second one free and THEN ordering a DIET Coke to save on calories.  Grin.)  The other part of the reason was it was easier to form Iron into tongue shapes without cracking, like brass tongues MIGHT occasionally do.  

Probably most of the Brass Buckles used here before the American Revolution were made in England from London and especially Birmingham, that was well known for the manufacture of  “Brass Toys” ( that actually meant items such as buttons, buckles, sugar tongs, etc.) by the middle of the 18th century.  

The other “problem” with the Georgia frame buckles may have been they required a double set of holes tor the two pyramid shaped tongues.  They also required different shaped holes, sort of like flat rectangles with rounded sides.  You can make such holes by punching two round holes on line and then cutting straight lines across the top edges and bottom edges of the holes, but that is a lot of work.  So they probably would have wanted special punches made up to make those holes as they did for M1907 leather slings.

However, what must be the major reason not to use brass buckles like these in the 18th and early 19th century is a combination of the cost of brass and if you wanted a sturdy, inexpensive buckle, then it was made from Iron.  Any Blacksmith could forge Iron buckles from scrap iron pieces he had on hand and he may not have had the “founder’s tools/equipment” to heat and pour brass, though gunsmiths usually did.  Buckles with single tongues were what most ordered, so that's what they made.

I wish I knew the “relative cost” of iron to brass buckles in the 18th century and I just don’t know that.  I get the feeling from original accounts that brass buckles cost anywhere from two to five times as much as iron buckles, but that is only a guess.

Gus
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 01:22:58 AM by Artificer »

Offline PPatch

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2013, 01:33:11 AM »
Humm... being a native Georgian y'all got me wondering how the name came about. Somehow though I don't believe it has much to do with Georgia.

dp
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2013, 01:50:54 AM »
PPatch,

I wondered the same thing when I was doing “UN-Civil War” reenacting in the 80’s.  I THINK it was because Georgian Troops were the first units that had them when noticed by Newspaper reporters and because they were noticeable, were so coined “Georgia Buckles.” 

The funny thing is that by the time of the UN-Civil War, Brass was not as expensive and not as necessary to the overall war effort as Iron or Steel was, so they did not normally make buckles out of Iron even though some framed ones were made with “snake tongue style” of tongues. 

Gus

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2013, 04:40:21 AM »
I guess cost of brass could have been a contributor. However, trust me on this, round holes will work just fine for the prongs of the GA buckle. I still have mine from back when I did the CW thang in the 90s. A little usage will form the holes nice and rectangular.

I think they are called Georgia buckles because they were prolly first dug up in some of those Atlanta campaign battlefields. Subsequent "archaeolgical" and imagery exploration revealed they were used almost everywhere.
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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2013, 12:03:45 PM »
Clark,

I reenacted the Un-Civil War here in Virginia between 1980 and 1988 when I was transferred that late summer to Camp Pendleton, CA.  I personally never wore/used a Georgia Frame buckle because I started as a Confederate States Marine Private through Sergeant and when I switched to Virginia Infantry, I did so as an Officer.  As a CS Marine, we were attached to Archer’s Brigade and when we formed the 47th VA, we were independent for a while and then joined with Longstreet’s Corps.  I was often assigned as a “Safety Inspector” because of my experience working/fixing NSSA guns at the Spring and Fall National Championships.  In those capacities, we came to know most of the other Confederate Reenacting Units of the period and some of them used “Georgia Frame Buckles,” most often reproduced by Hanover Brass.  

What I noticed about the troops who used the Georgia Frame Buckles and when people did not use elongated holes in their belts, was the round holes they used were either too loose or had a tendency to crack/split the leather when too tight and the holes were “force formed” to shape through use.  That’s part of the reason Georgia Frame buckles were not real popular during those years in Confederate Reenacting in the Virginia/Carolina’s area.  

As one who made reproductions of leather cartridge boxes, slings, cap boxes, belts, holsters, etc., etc. and because I saw some original surviving belts with original Georgia Frame buckles at NSSA and Collector shows, museums and other places; I learned the authenticity and “user value” of the rectangular shaped holes with rounded sides.  I also reproduced those holes in maybe a handful of belts to assist people who wanted to use the Georgia Frame buckles.  

So while it’s true one could get away with using round holes in belts for Georgia Frame buckles, they were not the best shaped holes to use.

Gus
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 01:47:37 PM by Artificer »

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2013, 02:50:23 AM »
Gus, I only reenacted Western theater, having only attended one event in what we call the Easter theater. I did both Kentucky CS and US impressions. I had all details as close as they could be gotten with what was available at the time. In fact I'm sure about 7 uniforms I made are still in use. I made a single Mobile jacket (what a pain that was), and 2 Columbus depot jackets that were all hand sewn, and a couple of different styles of hand sewn CS trowsers, all from woolen jeans or satinette. I made my Union sack coat as to a contractor machine sewn pattern, completely hand sewn Schuykill arsenal trowsers (which I still have) and a pair of Steubenville Arsenal trowsers. I made my regulation great coat. I made my haversack and almost made my Enfield knapsack before I ran into problems with my first marriage and sold it all. I wish I had kept some of the documantation and photos I took of original stuff, some in private collections. I gave that stuff to a buddy that is still doing this and cranking out some of the best looking museum quality replications of uniforms and equipment I've ever seen. I wish I could remember the number of original Confederate belts I've seen. I do remember having notes on 32 Union regulation canteens alone. From all that looking and learning I did back then, I realized that CS stuff was made as fast and cheaply as possible. And the US stuff wasn't much better often times. Sometimes I miss those days.
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2013, 04:00:09 AM »
Clark,

I always envied folks like you who could hand sew cloth and uniforms.  I hand sewed all my leather goods, but never got very good with cloth or uniforms.

On one trip to Colonial Williamsburg, there was a man in his mid 20’s who portrayed a Journeyman Tailor in a shop I visited.  As he talked to visitors, he hand sewed about three inches of stitches in only maybe 2 to 3 minutes and he rarely looked down to the sewing as he spoke.  I know this because I watched him intently.  The stitching was very fine and uniform. That sure impressed me!!!

I also remember in the early 70’s there was one Lady who made a LOT of the dresses that Ladies used for the Dress Competitions at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships.   Her sewing was so uniform, she had been accused of using a sewing machine.  So she was asked to present herself to the Committee that judged the event and do some sewing.  She was almost as fast as the Williamsburg Tailor, but though it hardly seemed possible, her stitches were even more uniform.  The Judges were highly surprised and asked her how she did it.  She told them, “I count the holes in the material when I sew.”  HOLY SMOKE, that was impressive!!

Gus

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Georgia frame buckle question
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 04:41:52 AM »
Even on into more modern times Tailors had an apprentiship system. They had to be able to design the pattern, cut the cloth, sew very finely to include the most immaculate button holes in order to be regarded as a true tailor. The good ones oversaw their own shops, usually reserving the most visable stitching for themselves, while apprentices or seamstresses did the grunt work. Even unto this day it's a demanding and exacting business in the garment design world.

My sewing was slow and only good enough to do wartime "expediency". But my buttonholes to this day are rather nice looking, all 4 types; Full oval, single bound end, double bound end and keyhole.
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