Flint Patent breech use in America

[SuperCracker]

I know that it's probably not documented as a "Hawken" part but are there any examples of the hooked flint patent breech being used in America during the late flint period, probably during the overlap when cap guns and flints were both being produced.  I've seen these on English guns, but haven't seen anything to indicate it was really used here.

Specifically I'm asking about this part.
Flint Hawken style plug & tang for 15/16 & 1" barrels, 3/4-16" threads
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-16-3?PageSize=100

[b bogart]

Not an exact duplicate of this example but "THE" Verner rifle has a hook breech if I am not mistaken. I believe there are more examples out there.

[Dphariss]

I know that it's probably not documented as a "Hawken" part but are there any examples of the hooked flint patent breech being used in America during the late flint period, probably during the overlap when cap guns and flints were both being produced.  I've seen these on English guns, but haven't seen anything to indicate it was really used here.

Specifically I'm asking about this part.
Flint Hawken style plug & tang for 15/16 & 1" barrels, 3/4-16" threads
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-16-3?PageSize=100

There is at least one Simeon North Pistol with a recessed (Manton) breech. Pg 70 "Steel Canvas". There is a pair on page 79 that appear to have patent breeches as well. There is a high grade English styled FL rifle by Haslett in the same chapter that is apparently a "plain" breech
There is a rifle on pg. 34 that may or may not be a patent breech.

Hooked breeches were common but not so much on rifles since unless very carefully fit they may effect accuracy by allowing the breech to move during the firing cycle. We also have to remember that the "patent" breech was not patented until 1782 IIRC when Nock received a patent for the  Nock Breech. I am not well enough schooled on flint breeches to know if this was really the first or not. But it was different enough for Nock to be granted a patent. Prior to this, according to George in "English Guns and Rifles" the "chambered plug" was used. A common breech pug with a powder chamber and a vent at the back of it.


The Nock is on the right. Both apparently gave better velocity than a plain breech, the Nock especially or so tests in the 18th and 19th c seemed to prove.

Americans, in general, did not have a lot of cash and the "plain" breech works very well and would be a lot cheaper to make.
The inherit weakness  and corners in the flash channel of the drum and nipple percussion system resulted in most better grade percussion guns having "patent" breeches.
Dan

[Dphariss]

I know that it's probably not documented as a "Hawken" part but are there any examples of the hooked flint patent breech being used in America during the late flint period, probably during the overlap when cap guns and flints were both being produced.  I've seen these on English guns, but haven't seen anything to indicate it was really used here.

Specifically I'm asking about this part.
Flint Hawken style plug & tang for 15/16 & 1" barrels, 3/4-16" threads
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-16-3?PageSize=100

There is a flint patent breech S Hawken in the Smithsonian. Its had a drum screwed into the original vent but it and the lock were originally flint.



John Baird got Col. V. Goodwin to put some poorly researched information on the rifle in print and then blasted him with photographic evidence that showed it INDEED was originally flint. I can only assume Goodwin had pulled John's chain over this and John got his revenge in print.  Getting the real story is impossible now but Goodwin was in the "Hawken brothers never made flintlocks in St Louis" faction (regardless that is was IMPOSSIBLE for them NOT to have made flintlocks given the attitude toward the percussion system in the west into the 1830s) and John obviously believed they did and had proof of a "late" Hawken rifle in flint before he asked Goodwin for a written opinion on the rifle.
This breech is very much like the flint breech sold by TOW.

Dan

[SuperCracker]

Thanks guys. I knew you guys would be able to quickly prove or disprove it's authenticity.

Dan, that's exactly what I wanted to see. Does that gun have a band inlaid just ahead of the breech?

[Herb]

I built a .58 fullstock flint Hawken with this kind of plug, and I would never do it again.  This TOW ad says the powder chamber is .26" in diameter (their catalog says .285"), I think mine for a 1" barrel(#Plug-LRF-16-3 with a slant breech) was about .36", though the catalog says .375".  It is 1" long, with the flash hole at the very end.  This caused powder bridging with near total failure to fire with Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F, and a lot of trouble with Goex 2F.  I finally drilled mine out to about .440, and now it is reliable, most of the time.  It still adds 1" to the barrel length and a couple ounces of weight besides a lot of complication in cleaning.  If you just have to unhook a flint barrel to clean, I strongly recommend the Hawken 1" Flint Breech & Tang, part #Plug-FHG-16-3, where a flash hole liner is installed in the side of the barrel ahead of the plug (which unhooks from the tang).  If you have a 15/16" barrel and choose to use the Flint Hooked Breech and Tang, drill the powder chamber out to .440 (which Track says can be done) before installing the hooked breech.

[galamb]

I only use patent breeches on my projects and yes, agree, the powder chamber is "tiny" on most as produced.

But as suggested if you drill them larger, but keep them less than bore size AND chamfer the inlet to close to bore size followed by polishing of the face, chamber and flash channel of the plug you should greatly reduce the chance of powder bridging.

I don't find bridging as a problem - certainly not to the point where I wouldn't use a patent breech - just "feel" they are safer (and even if that's "unfounded", I sleep better at night when I think about pulling the trigger).

[Dphariss]

I have shot these a lot without a hint of a problem.


These are shop made and have a 3/8" powder channel to the vent.
People need to remember that the parts they get are often "generic" in nature. So the powder passages may be too small for the application.
Answer is open them up so long as its not over done and overly thins the threaded section of the breech.

This is the passage in my Nock breech and it always works. IF I use Swiss powder. Some other powders not so good.



I think the hole to the antechamber is +-.190" but memory fails me, should make notes I guess. I kept enlarging it from 1/8" until the antechamber reliably filled with FF swiss. As can be seen I break the edges slightly.

Dan

[bgf]

Of the ones I've seen, southern rifles that have them appear to have been retrofitted when converted to percussion, but I don't think it is a horrible stretch to use one on a flintlock, esp. if you posit the period was near the "cusp" of flintlock to percussion transition.  I used a heavily modified (esp. in tang area) "Hawken Flint Patent Breech" on a southern style rifle to replicate an original that had one in percussion conversion.  It is not a true Nock type, but the one on the left in Dan's picture, with the touchhole going directly into the "main"/smaller diameter chamber.  

Functionally, it works beyond my expectations.  Ignition is fast and if anything it fouls less than my regular breech flinter.  I don't think I drilled out the chamber much if any, but I did cone the top of the chamber and polish it out.  I noticed that wiping the bore doesn't cause any trouble with fouling the touch hole.  This is important because it is a target rifle that also pulls chunk duty.

Accuracy with the hook is not a problem because I took extra care to make sure it locks up tight, and I added a couple of extra screws, one in the standing breech (from the bottom to pull it down) and one that can push the breech up from the bottom (it doubles as a front TG "screw").  I haven't needed these screws yet, but I know I can tighten up the interface if necessary with them, in a couple of different ways.  The screw in the standing breech can be lengthened to lock the hook in (at the expense of easy disassembly) and/or the screw beneath the breech if lengthened will wedge the barrel hook tighter into the socket in the standing breech.  Probably overkill and it shortens the space available for a Ramrod, but that is a good tradeoff in my application .  I got this idea from a Dan Phariss post about screw in the standing breech and/or from below.

PS.  The breech you reference is the same one I used, except mine was the 1 1/8" size.