Copper or Brass screws

[galamb]

I recall recently that someone had posted up a supply of brass screws. There were a number of responses that they weren't used in gun building "back in the day" (I was of the same opinion although I have used them myself to hold a butt plate because I like the look better).

However, today I was reading over some notes that I have and found a written description of the "Sublette-Beale Hawken" built by J&S (in the 1835-43 time frame).

Anyhow, here's some of the notes from the "examiner" who observed "copper" screws...

"The stock is maple, stained very dark and measures 33 5/8” overall. Length of pull is 14 7/8”. The butt plate is 4 ľ” high by 1 1/8” wide (at its widest point). This gun has a “single” trigger.

The barrel key escutcheons are German silver with screws (copper) on the left side but none on the right.

The patchbox is rather unique, not the “pineapple” style often associated with Hawken’s."

So, if at least in this one example copper screws were used, does that make it possible that brass screws were also used or was perhaps copper used to create a silver/gold effect on possibly the "highest end" Hawken ever produced by the brothers?

Thoughts??

[Loudy]

I have a percussion swivel-breech made by Samuel Loudenslager in Juniata County, PA that has a German silver capbox that is secured with what appear to be original brass screws (the one in the finial is iron).  I have no reason to believe these are replacements.  I've always thought this was an interesting thing about this gun.  Of the twenty-five or so other guns I've seen by this maker, this is the only one I've seen with brass screws.  The rifle was made sometime 1840-1880.  FYI... the barrels on this gun have been cut back at the breech by about two inches.   

Mark Loudenslager

[galamb]

Very nice.

And also helps me decide what I have been considering on an upcoming build - plan on doing a silver and gold mix (ok German Silver and Brass) and was thinking brass screws would look nice to hold the silver patchbox.

So maybe brass/copper hardware was rare, but not totally unheard of ()

[Dave B]

The longer I do this stuff I have come to the conclusion that all ways and never are not words to use very often when it comes to this stuff. When I first got started in this  in 1977.  When making my first "Hawkin" rifle realized that what I built wasnt even close. My first look at a Hawken was in  the movie Jeremiah Johnson as my frame of reference I was very opinionated about what they should look like. When I found John Bairds book  realized I was not informed enough about what could be considered a Hawken rifle. I have a couple originals that have some brass screws used on the patch boxes. One in particular was clearly done with new screws and I changed them out for what I though were more correct.

[Kermit]

COPPER screws? 

[mountainman70]

It might be that the old time brass has a high copper content.,and after many years it takes on a copper hue.I have a leman style antique capbox I picked up a while back.On first look,it appears that the lid was made of copper.The underside cleaned up with polishg and revealed a yellow brass,still with a copper undertone.I,too,dont take anything for gospel in this study.Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.Dave

[James Wilson Everett]

Guy,

Here is a Somerset, Pa rifle made by Knupp, circa 1850-1880 with all brass screws on the patchbox.  I do not remember ever seeing a flintlock period gun with anything but wrought iron screws.

Jim

[Blacksmoke]

Hi Guys - I did a restoration a few yrs. ago on a heavy barreled " David Boyer"  fullstock and was surprised to find that the patchbox was held in place with brass screws. The gun was made Circa 1840 - 1850.  I have not seen brass screws used any earlier than that time period.      Hugh Toenjes

[bob in the woods]

Once you are past the 1820 mark, my personal opinion is that you are pretty much outside the " long rifle" time period.  18th C rifles , perhaps extending into the War 0f 1812 time period is my main focus, and I know that brass or "copper" screws would be extremely rare in that time.

[sweed]

It might be that the old time brass has a high copper content.,and after many years it takes on a copper hue.I have a leman style antique capbox I picked up a while back.On first look,it appears that the lid was made of copper.The underside cleaned up with polishg and revealed a yellow brass,still with a copper undertone.I,too,dont take anything for gospel in this study.Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.Dave

Electrolysis!! When you put different metals together in a conductive liquid long enough,  even high end propellers,(brass or bronze) will turn in to copper. All the other stuff leaches out, and your left with a copper looking fan, with  N O  strength. Could the same thing possibly happen on a rifle? Oils and salt from handling could be the conductive liquid. Just thinking out loud here, but I think with enough time, it could happen. Thus copper screws!

sweed

[Mark Elliott]

You do see brass pins in patchboxes, even flintlocks.   I have a late flint Gonter hanging in my shop right now that uses brass escutcheon pins in the sidepieces of the patchbox.    I don't guess it is much of a leap to brass screws in that application.

[T*O*F]

Questions for thought?

1.  When did brass screws become commercially available.
2.  Has anyone ever removed and examined one of these screws to see if it was hand-made or commercial.
3.  Would a gunmaker building guns from commercially purchased components and lacking blacksmithing tools find it easier to make brass screws.
4.  Do all currently known guns date to after the above, ie late period guns.

[Tim Crosby]

Questions for thought?

1.  When did brass screws become commercially available.

   I would take a guess at a C.1835 time frame, coinciding with the Industrial Revolution in the U.S.

     Tim C.

[Kermit]

Given what age is doing to my memory, I may have made this up, but somewhere in my woodworking meanderings I think I recall reading that machine made screws, to include brass, became available about 1820-1830ish. I also know that I DID read that European clock makers hand filed brass wood screws in about 1500. Who's to say that no gunmaker made screws of brass? Brass ranges between soft and nigh mushy. I don't even like using brass screws now. In furnituremaking I used steel screws in the fitting process and then installed the brass screws at final assembly.

There were--and are--various alloys that are brasslike, such as bronze, gunmetal, and bellmetal, which to most folks would read as brass when given a quick look.

Questions for thought?

1.  When did brass screws become commercially available.
2.  Has anyone ever removed and examined one of these screws to see if it was hand-made or commercial.
3.  Would a gunmaker building guns from commercially purchased components and lacking blacksmithing tools find it easier to make brass screws.
4.  Do all currently known guns date to after the above, ie late period guns.

[wmaser]

I have a leman rifle that has brass screws holding the cap box, a brass high dome lock bolt and brass pins. The front sight is a copper blade in an iron base.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is an opinion, not based on any primary research.  Brass does work harden rather quickly and so is a lot more difficult to cold form or swage than wrought iron. If you check out the tutorial on making wood screws, you can imagine the very high degree of cold forming to get the iron material to move out into the thread form.  This process would be very difficult to impossible with brass material as the bass would surely work harden to the point of failure half way through the swage process.  Really, I have never tried this, but experience in forming brass leads to this supposition.

This leaves hand filing to be the only process to make brass screws until the advent of automatic screw making machines.  Anyone out there who has tried hand filing screws, especially small patchbox lid size screws, knows how dreadfully difficult and tedious this is.  I think that what we see is the use of brass screws to be very unusual (perhaps even non existent) until the invention of automatic wood screw making machines in the mid 19th c.  One such machine was Patent number 79 in 1836.  Now, with such machines available, brass screws were probably easier to make than wrought iron screws.

Here is a question - Has anyone out there seen brass wood screws that pre date 1836?

Jim

[Kermit]

...and be certain the are not replacements?

[oakridge]

I agree with T*O*F.  And, I bet they are machine made brass screws that were available at the time commercially produced gun mountings were. Sets (capbox, buttplate, trigger guard, toeplate, entry pipe, escutcheons, etc.) of mountings in iron, brass and German silver were available from suppliers by the 1840's. The screws may have come from the same source.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here are photos of the 1836 patent Number 79 for a machine to cut wood screws.  This machine still did not put the pointed end on the screw and it did not cut the screwdriver slot in the head, these were later improvements to the process.  Perhaps a good starting assumption is that brass screws did not predate 1836.  Coincidentally, this does roughly correspond to the start of the percussion era.

Jim

[flehto]

Just wondering if some of the copper or brass screws are really broinze? Pictured below is my 2nd LR {1978} and the buttplate is definitely bronze  w/ an untouched surface. I see this LR periodically and the "pink" color is becoming more pink. w/ some green.

Bronze is a stronger and harder alloy VS copper or brass and my understanding is that bronze has been around a long time?  As can be seen, the buttplate and patchbox of yellow brass don't "blend" well....Fred

 

[Joe S]

my understanding is that bronze has been around a long time?

Since the bronze age, I believe.

[Kermit]

 

[KLMoors]

Now that's just funny.