G. Goulcher lock, small bore

[Quail1]

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii291/9shot/P1020025.jpg
Hello,
Brand new to the forum as I found it searching for info on this little gun. It has been in our family for many years. Supposedly purchased by my great great grandfather for my great grandfather when he was a young boy in Defiance , Ohio where they lived. It has always been known as the "squirrel rifle" and even my grandfather did not remember shooting it.
The lock is marked G. Goulcher and the barrel has G. H. Holmes Defiance, O stamped as shown in the photos.
No other markings that I have found.
It has an overall length of 47 1/2" and comes it right at 6 lbs. It is in very good condition and I have interest in shooting it. The barrel mikes at .271. Would I be able to shoot a .240 (#4 buck) round ball patched?
Any info or advice is welcomed.
Thanks in advance

[Shreckmeister]

I have George H. Holmes in Defiance Ohio 1867-1870.  Nothing else written.
Try aolrc.org  they might have more.

[mountainman70]

What a sweet Ohio rifle,looks brand new.Thanks for sharing with us.Dave in WVa

[GrampaJack]

Vol. 1 of the Ohio books has some information on him but not a lot that is definitive.  There is a picture of a Holmes gun that appears to be a double rifle.  Has a totally different trigger guard but overall the same style.  Your gun appears to be in excellent condition.  Not many that nice that have not been refinished. The information you can supply and pictures of the gun would be appreciated by the AOLRC. Smokinbuck will probably be along soon.  He will provide you with contact information.  If not I'll email you.  Thanks for sharing with us.  Jack

[Quail1]

Thanks for the compliments, it is a sweet little thing. It does hae some powder burn but probably seen little use.
Any thought on a load or ball size? Can I shoot Blackhorn powder through this?

I will be happy to provide photos and any info I am able.

[GrampaJack]

Here is a link for the AOLRC.  Please send an email with what you have and maybe attach a picture.  It may be that information on your Grandfather might enhance what we already have. I can't help you with what to shoot out of that old girl.  It is generally not advisable to shoot antiques but there are lots of people who do. You definitely need to have the thing checked out before you do.  It would be a shame to ruin such a fine old rifle to say nothing of your hands.  Thanks, Jack

http://www.aolrc.org/

[Bob Roller]

The possibility of blowing up a barrel of less than 30 caliber is very small.
I shot a really fine Whitworth in competition and hunted with it for 11 years
and finally sold it. Later,it came to Lynton McKenzie for evaluation and when I told
him serial#,he said "That gun is the one I'm looking at" and I told him of owning
and using it a lot in the 11 years I owned it and he  said "It shows no wear at all".
It proves that using a fine relic won't hurt it IF care is taken to preserve while
enjoying it.I have said and still do,I'd like to try that fine Whitmore made for General
Grant before it rots away in the Smithsonian Institute.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

To me,that rifle is a wonderfully preserved piece and should be enjoyed both visually
and at a range.I'd say,(only guessing)that this maker trained in the Northeast,it has
"Yankee Gunmaker"written all over it from breech to muzzle.I wish it was mine.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If the bore is as good as the outside of the rifle, and is .27 calibre, a .260" or .265" ball with a patch of .015" - .020" thick, will work really well.  To start, you might get some buckshot that is .250" and try it with a .020" patch.  It will be easy loading, and may give you the accuracy you are looking for.  If it were mine, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it WITH BLACK POWDER ONLY!!!  And you must KNOW how to clean a black powder rifle thoroughly.  In my opinion, wiping the barrel without removing it, is not cleaning it thoroughly.  You owe it to the rifle and the future, to learn how to clean your rifle.  Failing to do so will ruin it - turn it into a curio - a wallhanger.  What is "Blackhorn" powder?

[Quail1]

Blackhorn powder is a modern black powder substitute(Western Powders) similar to Pyrodex but FAR FAR cleaner.
I will look for .250 balls. My #4 buck mold is .240 and 00 buck .330. Where would I look for .250 balls?

I will contact the AOLRC

Thanks to all who responded!

[Bob Roller]

Is this Blackhorn Powder as corrosive as P-Dex and are the fumes dangerous?
I brought up the question of P-Dex on another forum and got all kinds of negative
feed back.I have never used it,never will and was curious about the corrosiveness
of the mixture. Not only destructive to steel but one chemist said if you want to do
yourself in,get into a closet or pantry and close the door and flash off a cup full and
the FINAL deep sleep will soon arrive.
As long as REAL black powder is available just what reason is there to use a substitute???

Bob Roller

[Quail1]

Blackhorn is FAR cleaner than either black powder or any other substitute that I have experience with. I have been able to shoot as many as 20 shots in a row without having to wipe or brush the bore. Extremely clean and non corrosive. Consistent in shooting.

Expensive

[smokinbuck]

Quail1,
You have a fine looking rifle that at first glance would appear to have been refinished at some time in it's life time. You don't often find them in this condition. As GramPa Jack sid, there is not a lot written about Holmes in our books and nothing about him in Sellers American Gunsmiths. We have listings for only about a dozen gunmakers in Defiance County. You can peruse our site at AOLRC.org but I don't think you will gain much. You might consider bringing the rifle to our annual meeting at Marietta in April where there may be some member with more information available. If that interests you, let me know and I will get you particulars. We also hold a shoot designed for original Ohio rifles in August and you would be welcome to join us at that event.
Mark

[Quail1]

I have discovered a bit more on this. I disassembled the gun for cleaning and now see "W.S. Brown, Pittsburg, Pa., Enterprise" stamped under the barrel end by where the tang is attached. I looked briefly online and saw some info on Enterprise gun works, Pittsburg, Pa. but don't understand how Goulcher, Holmes and Enterprise fit together. Could it be that Goulcher made the lock, Holmes the barrel, and Enterprise assembled and marketed the guns?
This is all new to me.
Marrieta sounds great but probably not in the cards for me yet. I'm in Utah. I would be surprised if this is refinished. It shows no sign of it to me upon close inspection. According to my Grandfather only my great grandfather ever shot the gun and owned it from new.
I'm having no luck finding .25 or .26 round balls and may have to get a custom mold made. Can I shoot a soft lead round ball .27 with no patch?
Any ideas?
Thank you all

[Levy]

I would suggest that you go to Ballistic Products on line and look at their line of buckshot sizes.  I think they may have the caliber buckshot that you are looking for.

James Levy

[Majorjoel]

Hi Quail1,  The barrel on your rifle was made by Brown at Enterprise Gun Works. The lock was made by Goulcher. The rifle itself was built by Holmes in Ohio using the parts he purchased. Just like we do today.  You will find that a gunmaker's name is found on the top flat of a barrel between the breech and the rear sight 9 out of 10 times (usually). A barrel makers name if there is one is most often found on the bottom flat of a barrel. Locks were available at most hardware stores during the period that your rifle was made.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You could shoot a naked ball out of the rifle, but what would be the point?  Accuracy would be non-existent and the barrel would foul badly and fast.  Jeff Tanner in England will make you a mold well, and cheaply. If the bore is .270", have a mold cut to cast a ball .260" - .265".
Your barrel is likely made of iron rather than steel, though I may be all wet.  If it is iron, your substitute powder's fouling will destroy the barrel in quick order.  Non-corrosive...BULLFEATHERS!!
You asked for advice.  Don't discard it because of expense, or because of advise from someone trying to sell you something.  For the sake of a beautiful, intact, well preserved by your two preceding generations, and valuable rifle, use black powder - not a substitute.

[Bob Roller]

This could be a remake by Holmes of a gun that was damaged beyond repair.
He has re-breeched it.OR it can be a cast steel barrel blank from Brown.It can also be iron.
Either way,it is one superb piece and should be preserved.You have seen some
sound advice on this forum about the use of substitute powders. That stuff is only
for plastic stocked,stailess steel substitutes for real muzzle loaders.
Somewhere there is a rifle marked L.Devendorf,Cedarville,Iowa on the top flat.
On the bottom flat it says Remington cast steel.It is a rebuild of a wrecked rifle
that I did for E.M.Farris in 1958 or 59.

Bob Roller

[gunmaker]

Majorjoel,  I'm 70 years old.  Grew up in east Tennessee near Jasper.  In the 50's the 5 and dime store had a box of perc. locks on the shelf,  I bought one for 50 cents I think, maybe a dollar (coke was a nickel then) Had it for years until it was lost in a garage fire mid-60's  People were still shooting & repairing ML's at that time.  Model "T" as well.  Wish I'd bought the whole box----Tom

[Bob Roller]

Is it true that the only thing ever made by man that
started at the bottom and went down was the Model "T"?

Bob Roller

[Quail1]

I did ask for advice and feel I was given good advice.
I purchased a pound of 4f powder today, #11 caps, patches, as well as a box of #3 buck shotshells that I have cut open. The balls are .25 and I plan to start with these. I cast many of my bullets and may have a mold made at .26. I have cleaned the gun well and other than some surface rust I believe the bore and rifling are in pretty good order.
I had seen the .26 RB that Ballistic Products sells, but was hoping to find or cast pure lead in that size. Theirs are hardened I believe. How important is it to use soft lead in this case? The Ballistic Products balls would make this easy....
I am sentimental about this gun and want only to do right by it. My asking questions should not be misconstrued as not accepting any of your well intended and knowledgeable advice.
Again thank you all. I'm hoping the squirrels will need to fear me!

[gunmaker]

4f may be to hot, even in a small bore.  I tried it in my .32 with a 42" bbl. and it would not group.  Same load (25 gr) in 3f makes keyholes....Just my 2 cents worth...Tom

[Bob Roller]

 I think "Gunmaker" is right. 4fg is not a real good main charge even
in this small bore rifle. Get a can of 3fg and it will probably do OK.
I'd start with about 20 grains of 3fg and fire 5 shots from a rest and
see how it does.

Bob Roller

[Quail1]

I'm headed there now. Thanks for the advice!