Wedge or pin spacing

[Bob Roller]

Memory is the second thing to go away but I can't remember what the first was.
Can anyone help out here?

Bob Roller

[Dan'l 1946]

Memory is the second thing to go away but I can't remember what the first was.
Can anyone help out here?

Bob Roller

  I'm pretty old, too, but I think it has something to do with our underlugs!
                                                                           Dan

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Back to the original question. . . .  For guns that will have a sling swivel/strap setup I like to put the barrel lug that will carry the cross pin or screw that the forward sling swivel will hang on just forward of the middle ramrod pipe.  This way when the sling is tight, the swivel will be pulled back until it contacts the outer surface of the middle ramrod pipe.  The middle ramrod pipe prevents the sling from obstructing the ramrod channel opening.  If we put the sling swivel in between the ramrod thimbles, the sling makes it difficult to return the ramrod after use since the sling/swivel will be in the way.  I hope that this makes sense.  Anyway, here is a photo of a German fowling gun with the sling swivel/barrel lug positioned in this way.  I am sure that you can see how this setup will keep the ramrod channel unobstructed.



Here is a short German rifle with the same setup, but at the forward ramrod pipe.  perhaps you can see ts better here as the strap is not in the photo.



Jim

[whitebear]

Guys,

Back to the original question. . . .  For guns that will have a sling swivel/strap setup I like to put the barrel lug that will carry the cross pin or screw that the forward sling swivel will hang on just forward of the middle ramrod pipe. .jpg.html][/URL]

JWE this pin/screw that is used with the swivel, is this also the pin/screw for the middle
underlug?

[northup87]

I am suprised no one has brought up "The Golden Mean" in this instance.

[Artificer]

Guys,

Back to the original question. . . .  For guns that will have a sling swivel/strap setup I like to put the barrel lug that will carry the cross pin or screw that the forward sling swivel will hang on just forward of the middle ramrod pipe.  This way when the sling is tight, the swivel will be pulled back until it contacts the outer surface of the middle ramrod pipe.  The middle ramrod pipe prevents the sling from obstructing the ramrod channel opening. 
Jim

Jim,
Thank you for adding this!  It is something I have never noticed, but should have as reenactors have been adding slings to muskets and most of us have never thought about this. DUH!!!!!

I also appreciate Whitebear's question on if the sling swivel screw was through a barrel underlug.

I know on Pattern 1730 Brown Besses, they had one underlug that was long enough for both a barrel pin and a hole for the sling swivel screw, but in the Pattern 1742 Bess, they went to a separate and more substantial barrel lug for the Sling Swivel.  That leads me to wonder if they put a separate barrel lug on for the swing swivel screw on rifles?
Gus

[Artificer]

Mark

There is no doubt that the old timers that Wallace was talking about from his youth believed that having the first pin(whether by long pin spacing or removing the first pin) made their rifles more accurate. And as one who believes that barrel harmonics play a large part of barrel accuracy I believe there is certainly that there is something to it.I just don't believe that that's the reason or am I aware of any evidence that that's why it was done historically.

Mitch Yates

Mitch,

Thanks for this clarification.  That means Wallace was talking about guys born in the late 19th century at the earliest.   

I completely agree barrel harmonics are extremely important to rifle accuracy, even when the rifle is only fired once at game or in a one shot match. 
Gus

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Thanks for the questions, I guess I need to clarify.  The screw for the sling swivel does pass through a barrel lug, and acts as one of the barrel attachment pins.  I do make the lug for the sling swivel a good bit more robust than a regular pin lug.  I do like the idea of the gun being carried by a lug that is securely attached to the barrel, and not just to the stock wood.  I am sure that you understand that the tiny amount of wood in a slender fore-stock may be damaged by the force of the gun being carried by the sling swivel.

The screw I use for the sling swivels is 0.139-34 size (18th c threads) and I make it from steel and not iron for strength.  Only the very end of the screw is threaded where it enters the swivel, about 1/8 inch, the rest being a full 0.139 diameter cylinder pin.

Jim

[Artificer]

Jim,

I've seen some fore ends busted out on reenactor muskets from sling swivel screw holes only drilled through the wood and not through an underlug.  This even though reenactors hardly EVER actually use the sling to carry the musket and the pressure on the wood from the sling is much less that way.

Thanks again for the tip on where to place the sling swivel hole and underlug and I'm sure I will use that in the future!
Gus

[whitebear]

Let me see if I have this straight now, the sling swivel screw will rotate somewhat so it wouldn't be considered for a barrel pin and.  Another pin and underlug needs to be installed hold the barrel to the wood.  Is this correct or am I still off in left field?

[whitebear]

I am suprised no one has brought up "The Golden Mean" in this instance.

Ok explain "The Golden Mean" and how it would relate to this discussion.  I am not trying to be witty or sound like a high school math teacher but this may be the answer to my question.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

The sling swivel pin or screw does double duty both as the attachment between the barrel and fore-stock and also as the attachment for the sling swivel.  The clearance between the pin outside diameter and the lug hole inside diameter is the same for both the "fat" sling swivel pin and the "thin" normal pin. 

Just as an additional note: I like to file the lug pin holes slightly oblong to allow for some relative front-back expansion motion between the iron barrel and the wood stock.  The growth in length of an iron barrel between "freezing cold" and "too hot to touch" is significant and can lead to some change in the bullet impact point as the barrel changes temperature if you do not allow for this thermal expansion/contraction.  Some serious target shooters may be able to give better information on this, with my barrels I am just happy to hit a pie plate at 10 yards!

Jim

[Mark Elliott]

I am suprised no one has brought up "The Golden Mean" in this instance.

Ok explain "The Golden Mean" and how it would relate to this discussion.  I am not trying to be witty or sound like a high school math teacher but this may be the answer to my question.

I believe the "Golden Mean" reference was a joke, because so many people try to apply it to everything on a longrifle.   I use it as a guide when laying out some things, but I believe it is wholly inappropriate applied to barrel tenon location.    As has been said before,   you pick the best spots for them as equally spaced as possible.   You have to work around the ramrod thimbles and  nose piece.  

[northup87]

Mark,
You hit it right on the head!  Just poking fun to stir the pot.

[RAT]

OK... but if you take your golden mean calipers and measure the distance from the breech to the first pin location... then place one point of the large end of the calipers on the point of the first pin... wouldn't the other point mark the location of the forward most pin? The other pins would be equally spaced in between.

Please take this as a joke... I don't own a pair of golden mean calipers.

[Acer Saccharum]

I just put lugs and pins where I think they should be. I don't know anything about 'school' placement. Exact placement only concerns me when I'm making a copy.

[Thom]

I respect the Golden Mean Preportion in every bit of my study and design of the rifles I build.  I place my barrel tenons where they need to be. I use 4 for 42" barrels as I don't think 3 anhors are enough for a thinly stocked rifle.

Thom

[whitebear]

Thanks guys I appreciate all the information.  As always when I ask a question I get very informative answers.

[David Rase]

Thanks guys I appreciate all the information.  As always when I ask a question I get very informative answers.

Sometimes even Acer has an informative answer.
See you in Lewisburg Tom.  And I will be praying for Eric's sanity.  I can't imagine being couped up in a car with you for an entire day.
David

[Karl Kunkel]

A day's drive discussing the application of the Golden Mean to zucchini?

[Acer Saccharum]

Lewisburg, here we come, doo-dah, doo-dah! With a huge zucchini on the roof, oh, doo-dah-day.