Early pistol photos

[DaveM]

Hi all - sorry, not a longrifle, but some of you may appreciate this so I thought I'd share some photos of this French pistol for you to enjoy.. .  The barrel has a top sighting rib from breach to muzzle typical of many early French pistols and long guns.

 Herman historica had a similar pistol in a pair made by Piraube (auction 48 lot 1270) - the mountings are silver.  Thanks !

[Curtis]

Very nice! Thanks for posting it.

Curtis

[Jim Kibler]

Dave,

I think your pistol is probably from around 1720 or so.  It may be of the general style used by Piraube, but certainly doesn't compare in quality.  Piraube was of course gunsmith to Louis XIV and pretty much the best of the best.  Without having this gun in hand, it's sort of hard to make an evaluation, but there seems to be a few odd things.  I wonder whether some re-work has been done?  Regardless, it's a neat piece that a lot can be learned from.  Thanks for sharing.

Jim

[DaveM]

Jim, I studied it again and do notice that a few areas of the wood finish look like they may have been lightly rubbed (or even very lightly chiseled?) maybe to take out some old scratches or dings, and lightly define the edge of carving in a few places.  Luckily was not done with a heavy hand, as it is not very noticeable under normal lighting.  I assume this is what you may be noticing, good observation.  The loop of the trigger guard is slightly bent, giving it a slightly irregular shape also.

I agree this is not a piece of the quality made for royalty by piraube, I just thought it was interesting that this one appears to have had exactly the same pommel cap as the piraube pistol noted above - I wondered if maybe this fellow worked with Piraube, but there is probably not enough info on these makers anywhere to know.  It would really be interesting to read about the various French makers and which of them worked with whom, like the info we have on American makers. If you know of any other good books about the early French makers I'd be grateful.  I have two - Kevin Gladyz's Trade Gun book and Lenk's Flintlock book.

[Jim Kibler]

In the larger gunmaking centers such as Paris and to some degree much of Europe dominate styles developed and were pretty much followed by the vast majority working there.  It has little to do with apprenticeships and who was working with each other.  These styles were typically introduced by the leading trend setting gunsmiths of the time period and followed by others.  Piraube is a classic example of this. 

As far as work on your pistol, I too noticed the carving looked a little coarser than I would expect and thought someone might have gotten after it.  Also, am I seeing something else, or has there been some wood replaced on the sideplate panel?  It seems there is a joint along the edge of the molding and the wood has a different appearance.   Also, it looks like the tang has been brazed and of course the guard has been distorted a bit. 

Like I said, it's still a nice piece regardless.  It really is amazing how much can be learned from European guns such as this.  The neat thing is that they are often very affordable.  After looking at things again I'd probably be inclined to think it was a little later than the 1720 date I previously suggested.

Jim

[DaveM]

Jim, I took off the barrel and took out the lock screws.  There is a barrel marking I'll have to get a photo of.  Definitely no wood added at the sideplate panel - the wood is solid inside the lock screw holes and this looks like an extra incised line above that gives this effect.  You can see some areas where the extra incised line wore off.  The tang is solid with no seam - not sure what the mark is on top of the tang, but there is no seam underneath or on the sides.  Here are some better photos - the more I study it, actually looks fairly untouched to my eye with dings etc.  These are great questions though, it helps me learn more about it!  I really like these early french pieces.

[Jim Kibler]

Dave,

I'm not sure what to think about this gun.  Some things look right then others look odd.  For example the tab (beavertail) carving at the rear of the sideplate panel (shown in second to last photo) is very oddly shaped.  Also, the size of these seem pretty large for a gun of this period.  The carving is pretty crude too.  I'm not sure what to think...   The guard and sideplate are quite nice.  The blueing on the guard combined with the wear create a pretty dramatic effect.  Thanks again for sharing.

Jim

[E.vonAschwege]

Dave and Jim,
   I've been reading both your comments and thinking hard about this pistol.  I too feel that Something isn't quite right, mostly in the stock decoration.  The silver mounts are beautifully chiseled and detailed, I particularly like the face on the triggerguard.  With mounts like these, I would expect to see a more refined overall piece, both with carving and general stock shaping.  To my eye, taking in consideration the brazed (lengthened?) tang, filled bolt hole in the tang, and the overall carving and shape of the stock, I wonder if this may be a restock of an earlier set of parts.  I don't think it's recently done; whether original or restocked, the wood has seen a fair amount of use.  The other thought is perhaps the carving was a later addition to an otherwise simple stock that had moldings, but little else for decoration.  Thanks for sharing Dave, I love these French pistols. 
-Eric

[Jim Kibler]

It's not uncommon for hardware to be superior quality on European pieces due to specialization and the possibility of using purchased hardware; however, given the funky nature of some of the stocking, I'm inclined to think along the lines of Eric as well.  I wrote "re-stock" in my last post, but opted to just keep it to myself.  I hadn't noticed to filled hole in the tang.  Tang problems and a distorted guard sort of point to a possible broken original stock as well.  If you can find a source that includes design prints from Johann Christoph Weigel, you will see hardware of a very similar styling.  I'm not certain when these prints were published, but I would guess maybe 1710-20 or so.  He died in 1725 so it was before then.  It's important to keep in mind, that deluxe guns were the first to incorporate cutting edge styles and lesser guns followed, with trade guns being some of the last to adapt.

Jim

[Shreckmeister]

This gun looks really worn and I think a lot of the original elements are just worn off.
I see gold in the sideplate now that I wasn't seeing in earlier pictures.  At one time this
was likely a real beauty.

[DaveM]

It is a bit of a struggle to get decent photos, I know that would help a lot.  Here are some of the lock recess and right side teardrop.  This is how the left teardrop would have originally looked before wood loss and / or someone re-engraved the edge.  The gun has certainly seen better days, but the overall form and carving to me looks like it was originally appropriate and well done, and now very worn as Schreckmeister notes.  There is a tiny recessed leaf next to the breach that is perfectly formed, saved from wear.  Also, the photos are deceiving from a scale standpoint.  The carved areas are very small.  Stylistically, the symmetrical raised carving is of the period also.  The lock recess was very professional, even with a recess for the internal bridle.

The circle on the front portion of the tang may be a cut-off screw to attach a replacement tang - it is hard to tell because of light corrosion but appears that the rear of the tang may have been replaced and added by a bevel connection and screw when it was converted to percussion.  The colored line doesn't look like any kind of seam underneath.  The forward circle on the tang (filled hole?) is immediately behind the plug below, and I don't believe that was ever a screw hole in the tang, it is way too small and I don't think would have been spaced correctly with the lock and trigger.  Anyway I respect your opinions and appreciate your thoughts.  Good discussion!

[Jim Kibler]

I don't know...   Yes, it's obvious the gun has much wear, but that doesn't change my view of the carving being rather crude.  I know how to carve and know what is good and what is bad.  I've also studied a lot of guns from this period and understand what was typical.  I still get a feeling there is something funky here.  It is possible that there could have been re-work done.  I still wouldn't rule out early in-use re-stock.  I don't see any gold in the sideplate.  Could you point this out, Shrekmeister?

[E.vonAschwege]

Dave,
   Thanks for the new photos.  You're right, the lock mortise is very nicely fit, a quality job.  It's interesting how the lock side beavertail is so nicely proportioned, where the sideplate beavertail is rather jagged.  The same can be said for much of the piece - some is quite nice, where other carving is more crude.  The triggerguard being slightly out of wack doesn't throw me off too much, silver is so soft that a short drop could have bent it.  Of course we could speculate for a week and not likely come to any conclusion.  Thanks Dave for allowing us to discuss the piece. 
   

[Bob Roller]

Our family doctor brought back a pistol similar to this one that
he bought for about $10 in a Middle Eastern bazaar and also a
blunderbuss with a non working lock.

Bob Roller

[mike blair]

where'd the photos go?i wanna see too.

[mountainman70]

Yea-what happened to the pix-photobukkit have a senior moment?