Is there a source for British locks in the style of the Mantons or Mortimer etc?

[razor62]

I'm considering building a British style dueling pistol and as I study the originals it seems as though the vast majority use a lock which incorporates a safety catch. I have not seen a supplier who will offer this type of lock. I was hoping that some of the more experienced builders have already faced this situation and may be able to offer some advice as to where one might be able to find such an item.

Here are a few examples:









These guns are in my humble opinion, some of the most attractive firearms ever made. Unfortunately I am certainly not skilled enough to produce anything even close to the quality of these British master gunsmiths.  None-the-less, I feel a need to "give it a go."

[4ster]

If you feel up to assembling a lock from castings this might be an option:
http://therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/english_locks_sights/(616).htm

[Acer Saccharum]

Also Blackley's in the UK, but again, you will need to assemble them.

[Dphariss]

Unless you are an experienced lock maker you need to find someome who can assemble the lock for you and its not going to be cheap. The castings cost as much as a completed L&R in most cases and generally require considerable work to assemble. To include making internal parts to replace flawed castings. Since thy don't all have safeties I would consider making one without the safety.
Maybe Bob Roller will chime in with some comments.
Dan

[hammer]

Pedersoli have flint locks with this safety bolt.  And I believe the locks can be bought separately.  Of course the locks themselves aren't the finest looking or the best designed but they may be a starting point.
Good luck,
Peter.

[Bob Roller]

I have been using the EXTERNAL parts of 3 L&R flintlocks and making a
benchcrafted mechanism for them that have no castings.They are the Ashmore,
the small Manton/Bailes/Nock and the Durs Egg.The sliding safety presents its
own set of problems and incorporating them can be a very costly addition to
the lock.There may be people that still work for a dollar an hour because its a gun related item but I am NOT one of them.
The castings I have seen using antique parts for the internal parts usually are one short step away from being unusable and I won't even look at such a job.While I am certain that REALLY high quality internal cast parts are possible,the nature of the muzzle loading market runs in another direction of minimum cost and in today's economy,it is easy to see why.
Good luck with your search for a good lock.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi Razor,
I've built dueling pistols following traditional British lines and features.  They are not easy to do right.  Blackley's has the only good selection of lock castings that you are looking for.  You have to build the lock.  All of the commercially made and assembled pistol locks lack the safety bolt and are too large.  The Mortimer lock from Pedersoli is an exception but having worked on several, I am not impressed and they don't live up to British quality.  In addition, no one commercially manufactures appropriate trigger guards.  The bows on dueling pistols were larger than the pistol trigger guards sold today for 18th and early 19th century guns.  The essence of British dueling pistols was perfect function, superb workmanship, and great feel in the hand.  You really have to handle a few to get it right. 

dave

[razor62]

Thanks everyone for all of your input. I'm not sure that I'd be up to the task of creating a working lock form a set of castings. Looks to me like I'd need to go to school for a year or two just to learn how to properly harden the parts.
As Bob mentioned above, expense is definitely a factor that I need to consider as well.
Perhaps modifying a production lock would be an option.
Dave, I've seen your duelers and I must admit that they were part of the inspiration for this project. Your faux damascus patterns blew me away!
I'd like to see a few diagrams or photos of the internals of one of these locks so that I could get a better idea as to what would need to be done to modify a production lock.
I'm not going to abandon the idea of building a British style pistol with a lock which does not incorporate a sliding safety either. It does look to be the best option based upon what I'm being told.

I'll continue to look into my option.

Thanks again folks!

Kevin

[Mark Elliott]

I will make you a set of locks, from castings or otherwise; but I am not going to charge any less than Bob.   

One thing about you last statement.   If you are not up to making a lock up from castings, then I don't think you are up to modifying a commercial lock except to re-file the plate or cock.   You pretty much need the same knowledge and skills to modify a lock as make a lock.    Once you make one change to one of the internal components, you most likely are going to have to touch all of them. 

This is not to discourage you from trying.  After all,  I learn by trying, failing, and trying again.    Usually  I get it right on the second try.    However,   I have been making lock parts since I was 16 years old which is well over 30 years ago.   

Best of luck,

Mark

[smart dog]

Hi Razor,
I certainly can appreciate your drive to build a dueler.  I love them too and have 2 sets of barrels, English walnut blanks, and 2 sets of lock castings on order.  Not all dueling pistols had safety bolts, even in the 19th century.  Let me suggest an alternative for you.  Use the L&R Bailes lock but modify it.  Remove the mainspring and fill the hole in the plate for the spring stud.  Then drill another stud hole slightly higher on the plate so the bend of the spring is more centered on the lockplate.  Then file off the downward curve of the front end of the plate so the bottom is straighter.  I hate that curve on that lock and it often results in some awkward-looking pistols.  Try to narrow and shorten the tail of the plate as much as possible.  I think you could create a pretty acceptable dueling pistol lock by doing that. 

dave   

[razor62]

Thanks Mark. As I said, I have no idea what it would entail to modify a production lock in such a manner. I'll take your advice however and toss that idea into "bad idea" bin. Seems to fill up allot faster than the other bin.

Dave, Your suggestion sounds doable to me with my skill level. I'll definately look into the Bailes lock.

This project is going to go on the back burner for a little while anyway do to limited time and $$$. I try to build one gun each winter once my deer season is over. I've got all the necessary parts to build a Kentucky style pistol already in my possession so I'll be diving into that one very soon. I'm sure that I'll be pestering all of you fine folks for advice as that project gets underway. This will be my first attempt at a pistol. From what I see written here a pistol posses all sorts of challenges that one doesn't encounter when building a rifle. That's Ok though. I love a challenge just as long as I don't fail to meet it.