Author Topic: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne  (Read 12185 times)

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« on: July 05, 2016, 06:24:01 AM »
Mtn Meek told me about this rifle, so I stopped to examine it on my way to Iowa.  It is in The Nelson Museum of the West at 1714 Carey Avenue, right downtown.  This has some great displays of African game, plus American big game and a Russian Black Bear.  A fine museum well worth spending some time in.   Robert L. Nelson just got back from bear hunting in Canada and allowed me to handle and measure  his Hawken.  He said it took 40 years to finally buy it from a collector in Lancaster, PA.  It is in fine condition.  I made a tracing and took about 80 measurements of the rifle, plus these photos.


It has a 35.5" barrel ahead of the snail and is .54 caliber.

Length of pull is 13 7/8 inches center of butt plate to front trigger.










Photobucket is acting up, so I'll come back later with more photos.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:44:14 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2016, 06:35:46 AM »










« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 02:45:40 AM by Herb »
Herb

JoeG

  • Guest
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2016, 06:56:04 AM »
Herb, you have gotten quite a collection Of Hawken photos,and measurements. When are you publishing  your book? I think there would be a market for it.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2016, 08:01:13 AM »
Herb:  many thanks for this rare opportunity to view a treasure of a rifle.  Is the nose piece two piece - front brazed to the back?
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Don Stith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2815
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2016, 03:08:16 PM »
Thanks for sharing the pictures. The photo with ruler makes the LOP look closer to 13 3/8 though. THe actual zero for center of plate is the upper one  which is set back at least a quarter of an inch

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 04:23:44 PM »
Hi, Joe.  No book in mind.  Taylor, I did not look at the nose cap close enough to know, but I did pull the ramrod and examined the underrib for screw spacing.  If they were there, I could not see them.  The rib may be soldered on.  I think if the nosecap had a soldered face I would have noticed it, but maybe not.   Don, There is parallax in the photos, I measured the LOP carefully and it is 13 7/8".  I expected it to be shorter.  The entry pipe is 3.15" long,  the butt plate is 4.55" high and 1.2" wide.  The BP return (top part) is 3.2" long with a 2.2" shelf. Belly depth is 1".  I did not photograph the toe plate, it is the TOW beavertail, 4.3" long.  I made an outline tracing on freezer paper, on which I can transfer my exact measurements to produce an accurate plan.  I also did the S. Hawken in Lincoln, NE that Roubidoux produced a plan for.  The curator is checking to see if that plan is available. Will post photos of that rifle in a day or so.
Herb

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 05:52:47 PM »
Good work Herb, and thank you, very much!

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline sqrldog

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 986
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2016, 06:00:32 AM »
Herb
Thank you for taking the time to share your pictures and research on the Hawken rifle. I always enjoy looking at a Hawken. My favorite half stock percussion rifle. Tim

Offline Don Steele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2016, 01:01:31 PM »
Thanks for sharing your pictures and the specifications on the Hawken. I also found the L.O.P. to be a bit of a surprise. I don't know how the L.O.P. on this rifle compares to other known S. Hawken rifles. For a rifle that most likely would have been intended for use in a cold weather environment by men in heavy clothing, I would expect a shorter L.O.P. Perhaps this one is a custom build for an especially large individual..??
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 05:10:57 PM »
More photos.












« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 03:02:39 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 05:15:04 PM »
One more.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 03:03:09 AM by Herb »
Herb

Offline redheart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 08:41:36 AM »
Herb,

Love the pictures.
By the way, does this Nelson Museum require that you take your shoes off before you come in? ;)

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 04:59:54 PM »
I pulled a chair over to stand on for vertical photos of the whole rifle laying on a table.  So I took my boots off (bought at Cheyenne a few years earlier). At the Lincoln museum they had a step platform that I used, didn't take my boots off there.
Herb

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 07:42:17 PM »
I'm having a great time studying these images Herb.  I'd say that the entry pipe and nose cap are sheet metal.  The entry pipe may be two pieces - the tail soldered to the pipe, or one piece, and filed to look like two pieces.  The nose piece looks to be two pieces - the end piece soldered into the front of the cap so you don't see the joint.  The stock has had some hard sanding to make it look nice, and this has rounded over the lock panels much more than when the rifle came off the bench.  Note the quick transition where the lower line of the lower forestock curves into the wrist forward of the trigger guard's bow.  Note the engraved or filed lateral lines on the ends of the barrel slides to assist in their removal - just like good English guns of the era.  The rib is concave along its sides and bottom.   The keys/slides enter from the left side.  All screw heads are filed flush except the lock bolt which appears to be domed, but countersunk.  The rear sight is set in upset barrel metal.  The front appears to have a silver blade in brass base.  Nose cap attached from inside the barrel channel with a screw...perhaps a # 8.
Ah, the details...
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2016, 02:19:11 AM »
That looks like a lipped underrib like Muzzleloader Builders has.  Wish I had removed the barrel to look on the inside, but I did not think to do it. The Bridger Hawken's entry pipe (from Greg Robert's original tracing when the rifle was at GRRW in 1975)  is "formed of sheet iron .060.  Flap is 5/8" wide.  Inside diameter is .510, Outside diameter is .585."  The rod pipes were "rolled from sheet iron, .530 ID, .615 OD."  Rib was 3/16" thick at the concave part.  This Cheyenne Hawken had rod pipes .630 and .620 OD and .500 inside, entry pipe .475 ID.  The Lincoln Hawken had pipes .635 OD front and .610 rear and .515" ID, entry pipe ID .485.
Herb

Offline SingleMalt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • One day I'll be considered a good builder.
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2016, 05:53:12 AM »
WOW!   :o  I don't know squat about Hawken rifles, but WOW!
Never drink whisky that isn't old enough to vote.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."- Plato

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2016, 03:34:59 AM »
I find the info and dimensions about the rib to be interesting.  The milled ribs I bought from MBS along with their nose caps did not mate well.  With the rib installed on the barrel, the concave depth was way over 1/4".  I guess I could have spread the rib against the barrel to bring it in some, but didn't think of it at the time.  I simply had a pro wire feed weld a bit more material to the inside octagon of the nose caps.  I made two rifles that way.  It sure pays to have access to original Hawken rifles, eh?
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2016, 09:21:19 PM »
Mtn Meek told me about this rifle, so I stopped to examine it on my way to Iowa.  It is in The Nelson Museum of the West at 1714 Carey Avenue, right downtown.

Herb, I’m so glad you were able to take the time to stop in at the Nelson Museum of the West and take pictures of this rifle.  When I saw the picture of that rifle on the museum’s website sometime back, I was intrigued by some of its features.  Your pictures show those features in detail and answer many of the questions I had about it.

I was hesitant about adding this post as I’m not sure very many folks are into the details of Hawken rifles as I am and wouldn't find discussing some of the minutia of this rifle all that interesting.  But what the heck, here goes.

Through the literature and the few rifles I’ve seen in person, I’ve observed some noticeable differences in the rifles marked J&S Hawken versus those marked S Hawken.  Granted, there is about as much variation among the J&S Hawken rifles as there is between J&S and S Hawken, but a few things stand out.  One of those is the shape of the breech bolster and another is the shape of the trigger guard.

There are no hard, fast rules when it comes to Hawken rifles, and it’s dangerous to make general statements about them, as there are always exceptions.  The rifle in the Nelson Museum appears to be one of those exceptions.

Most J&S Hawken marked rifles have one of two types of breech bolster.  One of these types is the brazed-on bolster like the one found on the Leonard Hawken now in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection.



This type of bolster can be found on early English percussion guns as well as pistols and rifles made in the Eastern US.  It was apparently developed early in the adoption of the percussion system and was stronger than the typical screw on drum and nipple configuration.  The Hawken brothers were obviously influenced by new developments overseas and back East, but it is not known how quickly they adopted new techniques and abandoned older techniques and styles.  Otherwise, it might be assumed that the brazed-on bolster would be found on the earlier J&S Hawken rifles and the patent breech bolsters on later rifles, but we just don't know.

This bolster is often brazed on the barrel and not part of the breech plug as there is no seam visible in front of the bolster.  The breech plug used in this style of breech is an English hooked breech plug. 

The other type of breech bolster seen on several J&S Hawken rifles is the snail or “comma” shaped bolster as seen on the Sublette-Beale Hawken.



The snail type bolster is often part of the breech plug and forms what is commonly referred to as a patent breech.  The face of the rear fence is continued down and forward forming a groove that curls under the bolster holding the nipple.  This groove is meant to divert the flash from the nipple down and away from the shooter.  There is often a flat face on the bolster that resembles a “comma” as highlighted in the photo below.



The front of the bolster is rounded, and it’s lower than the rear fence, providing little or no protection to the barrel in front of the bolster.

The brazed-on bolster probably required a separate “standing” breech as part of the tang to provide a platform for the rear fence.  Therefore, the brazed-on bolster will likely always be found in conjunction with a “hooked” breech design.

The snail type bolster with patent breech is seen on both fixed and hooked designs.

In later years, Sam Hawken refined the shape of the bolster with a concave section coming around from the front of the bolster and down to the junction where the “hooked” breech meets the “standing” breech.  The groove from the front of the fence was directed almost straight down along the line of the junction and not curled under the bolster.  This later snail shape developed by Sam is what most people expect to see on a Hawken rifle.  It is well illustrated by Herb’s picture below of the S Hawken rifle in the Nebraska History Museum in Lincoln.



The variety of shapes of the breech bolster found on S Hawken marked rifles is shown below.  In the sprite of full disclosure, the images have been ordered in such a way to imply a progression or evolution in the shape of the snail on S Hawken rifles.  These rifles are not dated and there is no way to know in what order they were actually made.  The top two images are probably early and the bottom two are late.  Those in the middle could have been made in any order.



The snail on the subject rifle, as seen below, more closely resembles those seen on some J&S Hawken rifles than the typical S Hawken rifle.



In fact, it is very similar to the snail on the John Brown J&S Hawken rifle in L.D.S. Church historical collection in Salt Lake City, especially the way the outside corner of the rear fence comes around and along the side of the hammer.



Another interesting feature of the S Hawken in the Nelson Museum is the shape of the trigger guard.  John Baird was the first to point out in an article published in the May 1967 issue of Muzzle Blasts that the rear scroll on many J&S Hawken rifles is rounded while the rear scroll on most S Hawken rifles is oval shaped and almost perpendicular to the bottom of the butt stock.

This is the classic shape of the trigger guard found on some J&S Hawken rifles.



The classic S Hawken guard looks like the one on the S Hawken in the Lincoln Museum, shown in Herb's photo below.



As with all general statements about Hawken rifles, there are exceptions to the shape of the trigger guards found on both J&S Hawken rifles and S Hawken rifles.  On these exceptions, it’s often difficult or impossible to tell if the rear scroll on the guard left the Hawken shop in the shape we see it today or if it had been bent sometime during its working life.

The guard on the S Hawken in the Nelson Museum appears to be kind of in between—not quite fully round and not the elongated oval seen on other S Hawken rifles.



Some other features of the Hawken in the Nelson Museum can be found on both J&S Hawken marked rifles and S Hawken marked rifles.  These include the two-piece brazed nose cap and the two-piece brazed butt plate.

Considering the period that Sam Hawken was proprietor of the Hawken shop—from Jacob’s death in 1849 to about 1855—this rifle has characteristics that could place it near the beginning of that period.  It’s possible, and maybe even probable, that this rifle was made around the time of Jacob’s death or not long after.  The rifle appears to mark the transition from the rifles built under the direction of Jacob to the point that Sam and his workers started developing Sam’s signature characteristics, namely the classic snail on the breech bolster and oval rear scroll on the trigger guard.

Herb, the S Hawken rifle in the Nelson Museum and the one you examined and photographed in the Lincoln Museum may pretty well bookend the Sam Hawken period.
Phil Meek

Offline Joe S.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1990
  • the other Joe S.
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2016, 02:48:02 AM »
Very interesting,always like hearing the details of these rifles.

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2016, 06:44:43 AM »
Wow!  I did not notice that the bolsters had so much variation.  That is why pictures of original rifles are so valuable.  There is always more to be seen when you know what to look for.  Thanks for that wealth of information, Mtn Meek.
Herb

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: S. Hawken rifle in Cheyenne
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2016, 08:27:52 PM »
I love this stuff!!

Another aspect of trigger guards, and one that modern replicas miss, is the length 'fore and aft' of the bow.  This coincides with the length of the trigger spurs...modern replicas are always longer than many of the originals.  On the S. Hawken rifle I made for myself a few years ago, I wanted to approach this longer bow, so I heated my casting red and used a cross peen hammer inside and outside the bow, over a mandrel, to lengthen it.  I made my guard at least an eight inch longer than the original casting, and it adds mush to the architecture of the rifle.  Check out the guard on the rifle Herb has submitted here.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.