Author Topic: Flintlock pistols  (Read 9089 times)

brokenflint

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Flintlock pistols
« on: January 26, 2009, 12:57:10 AM »
I'd like to see if I can find more information on flintlock pistols from the 1720's to the 1820's to learn more details.  The only source I have at the moment is "Thoughts on the American Flintlock Pistol, by SE Dyke" I've seen that one example has been added to the virtual library which I found of interest.   Any of you have any leads you can point me to either websites or written documentation? 

Offline Dave B

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 01:29:44 AM »
Brokenflint,
In these books I have found pistols from this time period are:

The kentucky Pistol by Chandler & Wisker,
Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850 James R Johnston,
The English Pistol a pictorial study by Beebe & Bingham,
Brithish milkitary firearms 1650-1850 by Howard Blackmore,
Georgian Pistols the art and craft of the Flintlock Pistol, 1715-1840.

The english pistols were copied by makers here in the Americas so you can't go wrong in using them in your studies. The cheapest of the books was The Eglish Pistol pictorial study wich was about $10 a few years back. It is not a very well bound edition but is great in that it gives measurments for barrel lengths which can be referenced with an enlargement to get plans made for reproduction of a pistol to scale.
Dave Blaisdell

brokenflint

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 04:35:24 AM »
Thanks Dave   Looks like I've got a little reading to do  :)   

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:32:34 PM »
Dave B gave you a great list of books to review. You might add: The Kentucky Rifle . . . a True American Heritage in Picture, KRA 1967. Mostly rifles, but includes nine pistols. Has good photos both right and left sides. Glad to hear about Beebe & Bingham, started looking for a copy.

 I have been looking closely at the American pistols of British holster style, to learn exactly what distinguishes American from a common English pistol. My incentive is I am in process of purchasing such an American pistol. Walnut stock, woodwork not up to English standards and a truly squirrely little thumbpiece.

Flayderman’s Guide to Antique American Firearms, under the section “American Colonial and Revolutionary War Firearms, subheading Pistols” says:
“Two general styles have been noted (a) Those closely patterned after the British holster pistols of the period, often distinguishable by the type of materials used, such as the different wood and very often the lesser quality of workmanship, and (b) The so-called “Kentucky” type . . .Although distinctly American in appearance the earliest specimens retained very Germanic characteristics.”

Sounds like you have two basic styles to consider. Being individually made, the characteristics tend to blend into each other in some guns.

American holster pistols of the English style are shown in:

Battle Weapons of the American Revolution, George C. Neumann. Page 270, American Holster Pistol Circa 1740 – 1760.   
 
The Pennsylvania – Kentucky Rifle, Henry J. Kauffman, plate 86, also pl. 88, 85
 
Firearms in Colonial America, M.L. Brown, page 273 American pistols with similar "cane-handle" grip style.
 
The Kentucky Rifle, Merrill Lindsay, photos by Bruce Pendleton, section 20 Kentucky Pistols, walnut stocked pair by Switzer, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, same grip style ". . .could be either British or European, but the pistols are very much American in the shape and treatment of the walnut stocks." The same pair is shown on page 216, Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750 –1850, James Johnston.
 
The New England Gun, Merrill Lindsay, illustrates a  pistol by Asa Waters, No. 32, with grip, and thumbpiece very roughly similar to what I am getting, and some silver wire inlay.

These holster pistols, English or American, were generally smooth bored, no sights.

For shooting I am currently assembling parts to make an early Kentucky style pistol, .40 cal 13/16” octagonal barrel, roughly like the bottom pistol on p13 of Sam Dyke’s book, but using Schroyer style tang carving & sideplate.

Offline Rolf

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 08:06:20 PM »
I'd love to have these books, but they'd make to big a hole in my building budjett.

The kentucky Pistol by Chandler & Whisker, price: 150$

Georgian Pistols the art and craft of the Flintlock Pistol, 1715-1840. Price 203$

I wish someone would reprint these.


Bet regards

Rolfkt

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 08:38:59 PM »
on abebooks.com  today I see
The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle, Henry J. Kauffman $20 – 40.
This book may be under-rated as it doesn't have the pretty pictures of others. But it has the most depth of information regarding these arms.

Kentucky Rifles and Pistols, James Johnston (KRA) $45 –50

The Kentucky Rifle . . . a True American Heritage in Pictures, KRA  $70 – 90
excellent photos, I once heard them described as "clinical" by one disapproving collector years ago. Clinical = great detail.


brokenflint

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 05:43:04 AM »
Thanks all, I think I'll be looking at inter library loan to see which ones of these i'd like to spend my money on.  I really hate to pay collector prices for books as i have a tendency to beat them up  ;D.  I'll do some searches tonight on abe to take a look see also.  Thanks again.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2009, 03:42:51 AM »
Cost of books--Pardon my s-l-o-w brain. Just log on to kentuckyrifleassociation.org. Wander through. For $20 they will send you a CD with pictures from The Kentucky Rifle . . . a True American Heritage in Pictures, and from Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750 -- 1850 There is other stuff, like copies of KRA Bulletins for $5.

brokenflint

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2009, 04:26:01 AM »
JC I like paper  ;) but that is a good idea, will look at further also.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 05:14:17 AM »
Perhaps they are too obscure to mention, but I really like these two:

"Antique Pistol Collecting" by J.Firth and R.Andrews (Arco publishing co, 1960) and
"British Pistols and Guns, 1640-1840" by Ian Glendenning ( Arco publishing 1951)

They are done in black and white, but have large glossy photos and in my opinion are
still pretty good early pistol reference books.
TCA
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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 09:07:04 PM »
Just for reference here are lock sizes of a few English pistols. I suppose Kentucky pistols may have used larger locks, as I own none, can't say.

Pair of Wogdon overcoat pistols, 8" .50 cal "French-style" barrels.
Double bridled locks 3-3/4" long

I. RICHARDS 9-1/8" oct-round stepped brass barrel, .61 cal 1st quarter of 19th century, brass lockplate, double bridled, 4-3/8" long.

Another Richards, not necessarily the same one, round 8-7/8" .63 cal iron barrel, single bridled rounded lockplate 4-5/8"

Ryan & Watson on lock of 8" round .61 cal brass barreled "trade pistol" single bridle 4-1/2" long.

It seems to me there is a rather limited choice in early style locks under 5" long, that actually spark. I like my Caywood 4-1/2" French pistol lock, the Ditchburn at 4.2" sounds real good, the "small" Siler is 4.78", the Small Queen Anne pistol lock is 5". I am uneasy about that 4.19" "Becky's Lock", as there seem to be some appologies for how it sparks.

brokenflint

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2009, 05:58:18 PM »
JC   What's an overcoat pistol?  This something that was normally carrier in a pocket?  At 8" LOA?    What's the deal with sparking on the smaller lock sizes, springs not generate enough power, not long enough throw? 

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2009, 07:50:05 PM »
Good locks spark real well no matter what they size.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 11:17:55 PM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Flintlock pistols
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 11:21:38 PM »
Holster pistols? Perhaps my terminology was a little inventive. I think overcoat pockets used to be large. These won't fit in the pockets of my Cobb Creek weskit.  Georgian Pistols, by Norm Dixon, might call them Traveling Pistols, Belt Pistols or Carriage Pistols. I leave the terminology to those more knowledgeable about 18th Century pistols, save that they are too small to be called holster pistols.  About 12" overall length. Not much bigger than a Colt .31 cal Pocket Model with 6" barrel.



That little Wodgon lock sparks very well. Years ago I shot it a few times, sparked it again today to reassure myself.  My comment about finding a small lock that sparked well was based on feeling uneasy about the comment in Track Catalog 17, p 181`, about Becky's Lock: "A small lock can never produce as many sparks as a big rifle or musket lock, but they spark well" Sorry, Track, guess I missed the last 4 words.