Rifle in the DeWitt-Wallace museum in Williamsburg VA

[Dennis Glazener]

We visited the DeWitt-Wallace museum in Williamsburg yesterday and I saw something that bugs me and maybe one of you can tell me more about what I saw.

There was a beautiful Montague flintlock rifle on display in a glass display case. The rifle has a two piece forestock. Between 1st and 2nd draw loops the wood is butt joined, much like the early CVA full stock rifles that had the forearm in two pieces. The only difference is this one has the ends of each piece covered with thin pieces of brass with an obvious crack between the two pieces. The joint is between the eustachian's (sp) around the draw loop wedges which seem to be spaced a little closer together than the other ones.

We discussed whether or not that the barrel had been cut and rebreeched and possibly the gunsmith elected to do this rather than cut the forearm and move the nose cap back and have to rework/realign all the draw loops.
Doing this would account for the shorter spacing between the 1 and 2nd draw loop. The barrel appears to still be fairly long maybe over 44" so not much would have been cut off.

Anyone ever seen something like this done?

Dennis

[Karl Kunkel]

Weren't some Officer's Fusils constructed this way, so they could be broken down and cased for tranport?

[David Rase]

Ahhhh.....The DeWitt Wallace Gallery, one of my favorite place's on earth.  I am building my oldest daughter a rifle based on that particular gun.  I always assumed that it was made as a take down gun.  I was attracted to the oddity that it had a full octogon swamped barrel.  I used a hooked breech.
DMR

[Tim Crosby]

 Wow Dave! That looks really neat. Don't tease us,  Let's see more of what you've done so far.

Thanks, Tim C.

[rich pierce]

There's a very early original "jaeger" style rifle, stocked in ash, very short barrel, looks first half of the 18th century, (I think it's in RCA volume 2) that has 2 brass plates in a slanted joint separating the 2-piece forestock.  It's an odd gun but very interesting.  I got to handle it when George was photographing it at a gun show in Pennsylvania around 1980.  It looks like a colonial American restock of a European rifle.  Maybe the original had the same slanted joint.

I looked it up and it's RCA #111

[James Rogers]

Yep, if it's like Dave's picture it's like many mid 1700's English fowling pieces I have recently been studying that were designed for takedown while leaving the barrel attached to the fore- stock.

[Curt J]

A number of years ago I cleaned up a rifle that had spent many years in an attic. It was made by "W. Lutes" who worked in Kentucky and later in Missouri. It was a maple fullstock with a full patchbox and was made exactly this way. As I recall, it had a 46" barrel so it is very unlikely that the barrel had been shortened. I disassembled it and saw no evidence that anything had been altered since the day Lutes finished it.

[flintriflesmith]

There are a few other Virginia made rifles -- at least one by John Sheetz of Staunton-- made with this take-down feature. I have always assumed it was for ease in cleaning. Take it apart and you can stand the barrel/breech in waterand flush it very quickly.

The reason I prefer the cleaning idea over the "take down for transport/storage" is that with a fixed tang the barrel and tang are only shortened by about 12 inches by removing the butt stock. Not much on a 60 inch rifle.

There is a 1760ish silver mounted fowler in ths CWf collection with the same design. It used to be in the same case at DeWitt Wallace.

Gary

[mr. no gold]

Apparently there were some rifles built that had 'take down' stocks. The Baums built several pieces that had the same joint in the forestock. It was not a common 'improvement' on rifles and it is seldom seen, but it was done for whatever reason.
Hope this helps, some.
Dick

[albert]

I have a friend that has a "Siple" flintlock that has this same feature,diagonal cut,with brass plates & locating pins. I always thought it was for easier cleaning.This particular rifle has a patchbox that is engraved with "Germantown" on it

[woodsrunner]

Why have I never run across this before? Does anyone remember a similar piece being displayed at the CLA in the past 12 years? Lack of interest or study is not to blame for my ignorance! Thanks, Dennis, for bringing this up! THANKS for the website!

[G-Man]

That is the same gun that Madison Grant obtained from Henry Beery in West Virgnia, and Mr. Beery had owned it since around the turn of the century (1900) era.  It is shown in The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch.

Gary - Whisker shows William Montague as being located in Middlesex County but that gun has so much Valley look to it - do you know any more about him?  I have always admired that rifle.

Guy

[flintriflesmith]

Gary - Whisker shows William Montague as being located in Middlesex County but that gun has so much Valley look to it - do you know any more about him?  I have always admired that rifle.
Guy

That is another of the documentation problems in Whisker's books. There is nothing to indicate that William Montague in Middlesex was a gunsmith or had any relationship to J. Montague, the riflemaker. Just a name picked out of the air as near as I can tell because he had some tolls and was listed as a joiner.

J. Montague appears to have apprenticed to John Sheets of Staunton and he is later found working in Kentucky in the early 19th century. I don't have the papers in front of me but think Lary Luck may have some that I sent him a year or so ago.

Gary

[Dennis Glazener]

Why have I never run across this before? Does anyone remember a similar piece being displayed at the CLA in the past 12 years? Lack of interest or study is not to blame for my ignorance! Thanks, Dennis, for bringing this up! THANKS for the website!

Rich thanks for the kind words. Now for a commercial~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For those of you that would like to see this rifle and the other fine guns displayed at DeWitt-Wallace museum (plus all the great furniture, pottery, painting etc) an excellent time to visit there and Colonial Williamsburg would be to attend our April 4th and 5th Southern Longrifle LLC longrifle show. It will be held at the Holiday Inn Patriot which is only 2 miles from Colonial Williamsburg.

Show attendee's can stay at the Holiday Inn Patriot Hotel for only $65.00 per night, you will not find a better hotel deal in the Williamsburg area. See our website http://www.valongrifles.com/southernlongrifleshow/

Oh, almost forgot, you can also visit the Colonial WIlliamsburg gun shop which has moved to its original loaction next to the foundry.

Dennis

[Sean]

There's a fine carved and engraved C. Gumpf Lancaster smooth rifle set up the same way that is pictured in Jim Gordon's recent book.

Sean

[G-Man]

Thanks Gary - that gun always looked to me like it came out of one of the Sheets shops based on the carving and other decoration.  The butt of the gun has unusual architecture but I've always really liked it - a really sleek looking piece. 

If I'm not mistaken the story of the gun is that Mr. Beery bought it at the weekly market in Belpre Ohio when he was young.  Grant got to know him by a chance meeting and they became friends due to their mutual interests in early history of the area.  Grant bought the gun from him in the 1940s or 50s.  Mr. Beery also claimed he once knew the whereabouts of a rifle that had belonged to Lew Wetzel and always wanted to buy it, but lost track of it's owner over the years and always regretted that.

Its interesting to see where these old rifles ended up.  About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to see another fine Kentucky rifle - looked to be 1820-30 period - that looked like it came out of the Sheets shops and ended up in the West Virginia mountains - it had reportedly been owned by "Devil Anse" Hatfield of the Hatfield and McCoy feud fame.
 
Guy