Author Topic: killdeer rifle  (Read 27848 times)

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 04:26:47 AM »
I've read Last of the Mohicans and one other... The Pathfinder, I think, many years ago, and I do agree with Mark Twain... they're absolutely dreadful.  The Bumppo character is simply annoying, constantly repeating the same irritating catchphrases.  That alone made them unpleasant to read for me.

In this one particular instance, the movie really is WAY better than the book!!!!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 04:27:44 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 05:22:11 AM »
I have both those books in paperback form. Started them a few times, but could never get through more than the first couple of chapters.  Tortuous reading  !!

Offline Elnathan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 06:17:26 AM »
Of the "Leather Stocking Tales" I was able to read, only the first three could not get around the others, I decided years ago that Natty Bumppo was the first American super hero.... Something of a "Captain America" in buckskins.
Dan

*puts on literary critic hat*

Pretty close. As you may recall, the first book Cooper wrote was The Pioneers, in which Natty Bumppo is a kind of personification of the wilderness and untrammeled freedom and acts as a foil to Judge Temple, who represents civilization and order. Cooper intended his readers to side with Judge Temple (who is endeavoring to preserve what remains of the wilderness from the depredations of the townsfolk), but made the mistake of making Bumppo a tragic figure instead of a contemptible one. Natty is a mildly comic figure, a cranky old coot who refuses to change with the times and is always going into long-winded reminiscences about the old days, but he is by far the most interesting character in the book, and readers apparently wanted more of him.

Cooper made Natty into the hero of the next four books, and in doing so made him into an exemplar of the best that human nature, uncorrupted by civilization, could achieve - kind of a "noble savage" type of figure. Cooper never intended him to be typical of frontiersmen in general, and in several books (particularly The Prairie and The Deerslayer) the other white frontiermen are not very nice people. To touch on the original subject of the post, Killdeer is something of a mirror for Hawkeye - it is supposed to be an exceptional rifle, extraordinarily long (Hawkeye is a tall, lanky man), plain on the outside but of exceptional workmanship, just as Natty is lacks all refinement but is of sterling character.# So, yeah, he is a superhero of sorts, but the character is a reflection of the philosophic idea that Cooper was playing with (and it changes a bit from book to book - Natty is a lot more saintly in the last two books than he is in LOTM).

The interesting things is that Hawkeye is the original version of that staple of Westerns - the "good badman" who does the hard dirty work of opening the frontier to settlement but is unable himself to adjust to the demands of civilization. John Wayne's character in The Man who Shot Liberty Valence may superficially appear to be quite different from Cooper's Hawkeye, but at the core they are the same literary "type."

*takes off literary critic hat*

I hope that made some sense. Yeah, I am weird - I actually read all the books as a kid and liked them a lot.


#If someone wants to try and make a "killdeer" of their own, I would suggest putting aside the movie gun for a bit and looking at 1) how Cooper actually described the gun, with due allowance for some anachronisms and 2) what the gun role the gun plays in the books, before 3) running the literary model through the filter of what actually existed at the time. You might come up with something quite interesting.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 06:33:57 AM by Elnathan »
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Kermit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3099
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 05:32:58 PM »
THANK YOU! Well said.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2655
  • NYSSR ―
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 07:22:17 PM »
Great critique Elnathan!!! I read them as a boy and again as an adult and enjoyed them equally both times! I may even take up your suggestions for recreating the Killdeer"!
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

borderdogs

  • Guest
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 02:47:14 AM »
I liked the LOM movie the book was dark and so was the movie. But I think Daniel Day Lewis is one of the best actors active today. I liked the Lincoln movie but it was Hollywood. I forget the name of that movie Lewis played in where he was the oil well guy but I think that is probably his best role and some real good acting.

Just my personal opinion,.
Rob
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 02:47:55 AM by borderdogs »

Thawk

  • Guest
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 06:06:15 AM »
Great critique Elnathan!!! I read them as a boy and again as an adult and enjoyed them equally both times! I may even take up your suggestions for recreating the Killdeer"!
Robby
I've thought the same and went through all the books.  Details on Killdeer a sparse. Hutty? Hutter?  the original, owner of Killdeer, has a shady background that he does not want to discuss, except that he was a sailor. (Deer Slayer) I took it to infer he was a pirate and Killdeer was gained through piracy.  Which could mean it was created anywhere in the world.  As Dphariss said it would be considered plain but exceptional workmanship and some small silver decorations and long.  So is it long compared to a Jaeger?  Is it plain compared to some nobles highly engraved showpiece?  Is it the one of the first rifles to make the jump from Jaeger to a style that became more common in the Rev. and Post rev era?  Could it be that it was so good it set that trend? (not that Cooper intended to imply that it set a trend....)  Just more of a random idea I had as I thought about trying to create what I thought it would have/should have looked like. Perhaps the earliest school in Easter PA would be the place to start if you wanted to specify that it was Colonial made.  The book places them in the Susquehanna area and allot of early trade used that river.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2014, 06:41:37 AM »
Dan,
When I asked about movie credits for the guns Bivins and I did for the movie I was told they would give us credit if we DONATED the rifles.  We gladly elected to take the money and skip the credits.

I got paid of the gun work  by Shiloh, but the advice, schooling and ammo used were all on me since I was an inside contractor at Shiloh.
I don't think other people in the credits donated their time so its just Hollywood stuff. I got the idea that to get into the credits one had to be someone or part of some organization in the motion picture industry. So be it.
THEN Megan Rose sent me a script to critique. The script is still around here someplace I think, I never read it. Mike Venturino might have read the one they sent him. Don't know if he sent them any advice or not, likely he did though considering. Maybe my kids can make some money off the signed poster and letter. Should have kept the rifle he shot too. It turned up on an auction sight a couple of years ago. I got broke and sold it soon after the movie was made. Too cheap as usual ??? But it paid some bill or another.
Meeting Tom was a lot of fun though, he really is a great guy.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2014, 09:28:01 PM »
I really enjoyed your "critique" post, Elnathan.  The only book of the series I ever read was TLOTM; The movie was nothing like the book but I enjoyed both.  With actors moving around and action being the focus, it's difficult, at least for me, to get anything like a good, close look at movie guns.  The average movie-watching tyro would simply see only "a gun" and not be knowledgeable enough to know what that gun is.  Cooper is credited with being the first American novelist to make a career of it; he was the rage in Europe.  Ah, but fiction is fiction and we all dote on it in this country.  I cringe when I read dopey statements and such concerning any firearm in the many novels I read.  You'd think these authors (famous ones) would at least ASK someone if such & such existed or functioned as printed.  They'll research everything but when it comes to firearms, oh, well.  Actually there's one well known female novelist I like who DOES get it right with the many guns in her books; who'd think?
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 08:24:05 PM »
Dan,
When I asked about movie credits for the guns Bivins and I did for the movie I was told they would give us credit if we DONATED the rifles.  We gladly elected to take the money and skip the credits.

    Not surprised by that.  Exactly why I chose not to let them use my house to shoot a movie.  I knew
they would get the better end of that deal and leave my house in a shambles.  That and the walking
freak show that showed up to look it over.  Hollyweird.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline mountainman70

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2465
  • USAF vet 1971-1972 malmstrom afb,montana
Re: killdeer rifle
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2014, 03:27:29 AM »
Now,Shreck,lets be nice to them folks,why,they dont bother us hillbillys much,I rekkin it be cuz they is affeared of them banjos a startin up,specially at dusk!!!!hahahah.lol.This is an interesting topic,sho nuff. :D