muzzle crown

[prairie flinter]

Hello Gentlemen;
       First time post from a long time reader.I've been shooting and building muzzleloaders since the mid 70's. I've built 5 guns from precarves and just finished my 5th from a blank.
       On my last 2 builds I smoothed the crowns using the thumb and emery paper method I read about on this forum. It worked great the first time but I'm afraid I may have been to aggreasive on the last one. Went out for my first shooting session and I'm hitting 4-5 in. to the right at 25 yards off hand. I've got it hitting center now but both sights are maxed out. Looks awful. This is a Rice barrel, so I hesitate to blame the barrel maker.
      I'm wondering if this could be corrected using the thumb and paper method favoring the side I want the bullet to go. I also have a coneing tool and was wondering if a light cone would correct this? Or bend the barrel? Your opinions would be greatly appreciated.   

[jerrywh]

 Don't bend the barrel.  If your coning tool has a pilot on it cone the barrel. I do not like coning tools without a pilot. there is no way to assure that the cone is straight if it does not have a pilot.  You can make a good coning tool out of maple of any good hardwood with a pilot on it. A lathe is best for making a coning tool but one could use a drill press or even a elctric drill and a file or two. Don't let anybody tell you coning will ruin the accuracy.
 The last gun I made was for long range shooting and the barrel was coned back about 3/4".  I won first place at 287 yards. off hand.

[prairie flinter]

Thanks jerrywh   I have one of Joe Woods coning tools that has a pilot.  Most of my guns are coned. Just wasn't going to do it any more because I end up useing a short starter any to get'em to shoot.

[moleeyes36]

I've used Joe Woods coning tools on a couple of rifles I've made.  I can't say they shoot any better or load any easier than rifles I've made or bought without a cone.  I've quit coning the muzzles, but if you've slightly buggered up the crown on your rifle it might help the situation.  If the crown is messed up too bad I doubt coning it would do the trick.  You may be looking at getting it re-crowned.

Mole Eyes

[bob in the woods]

What size , [straight or swamped ] what cal. and length.  From my experience,  I am surprised that you could/would ruin the muzzle to the point that it shot "off"  5 inches at 25 yds.  That is an awful lot for that distance.   Frankly, I have had more than one barrel that came through shipping with a "wow" in it. The worst was a 3/4 in straight, 42 in long  .36 cal barrel.   Another was a Colerain  A weight 42 in  .40 cal     I wouldn't rule it out .  Nothing against the maker...shipping companies can work miracles when it comes to wrecking stuff.   

[Hungry Horse]

 I have found a couple of swamped barrels that seemed to not shoot center. I'm not sure if they were damaged in shipping or if they got some kind of stress bend from the swamping process.
 As for the thumb and emory crowning, I feel, it is to slow, and to hit and miss. I much prefer a fine abrasive ball shaped stone in a variable speed power source. Oh, and a good eye, and a steady hand, helps.
 Coned barrels are like talking about religion, and politics, at the same time. I can't tell you how many shooter on both sides of this argument I've seen literally foaming at the mouth arguing their side of this subject. I've never been convinced it does any good. Done right it doesn't seem to do any harm either, so if it feels good, do it.
 i had a Mowrey squirrel rifle a few years ago, that shot about a foot to the left at fifty yards, and only shot center when the sights were hanging of the edge of the dovetails. An old shooter at a rendezvous that saw my predicament said he could fix it, so I handed it to him. He grabbed a file and started working on the muzzle to my horror. He calmed me down and told me to shoot it. I did, and it was much closer to center, after resetting the sights. He filed some more, and we shot it again, and it was now shooting center. The muzzle looked like it had been cut off in the dark by a blind man, but it shot fine.

                     Hungry Horse

[Kermit]

Ah, the Barrel Whisperer.

[Acer Saccharum]

Harry Pope did a lot of testing of muzzles to keep the forum quiet, er, to see about point of impact changes. Quite a fascinating read.

[Ky-Flinter]

Prairie Flinter,

Before doing anything permanent to the barrel, I would suggest checking to see if it is bent.  If the barrel is straight sided, it's easy, check it with a straight edge.  Swamped barrels take a little more time and effort.  Lay a straight-edge against the right barrel flat and use calipers to measure the gap between the barrel and the straight-edge at incremental points along the barrel.  Do the same on the left flat.  The right and left measurements should be the same at each incremental point.  If they aren't equal, the barrel is bent, and the real fun begins.  Don't ask me how know.  Mine was a Rice too, presumably bent during shipment.

-Ron

[Acer Saccharum]

You can also sight down the bore while holding to a modest light. You will see concentric circles in a straight bore. The circles will be to one side of another if the bbl is bent.

You can have a straight outside, with a bent bore, and vice-versa.

[Ky-Flinter]

You can also sight down the bore while holding to a modest light. You will see concentric circles in a straight bore. The circles will be to one side of another if the bbl is bent.

Tom,

I've heard that and it makes sense, but I sighted thru the barrel that I know was bent, and I couldn't see anything out of the ordinary.  But then it wasn't bent a lot.

-Ron

[jerrywh]

 I once made a rifle out of a Getz  B wieght 50 cal.  The rifle shot way off. I coned the barrel but it never made any difference. Then I took the barrel out of the stock and sanded some wood off the insides of the forestock to relieve it.  After that it shot like a champ. It takes very little pressure to move a barrel. Sometime put one in a vise and put a dial gauge on the far end. If just a little pressure is put on the extended end you will be suprised how much the barrel flexes. I have a barrel straightening press. It usually takes a bend of about 3" to put any permanent bend in a barrel of only .010".  That is with 12L14 or 1137. steel.  I have bent one 2" or 3" just to have it return to it's original shape.  At 25 yds a barrel would have to ba bent almost 3/16" to shoot off 5"

[PPatch]

Harry Pope did a lot of testing of muzzles to keep the forum quiet, er, to see about point of impact changes. Quite a fascinating read.

Care to provide a link to such palaver Mayor Saccharum?

Your Effecting Servant etc etc

dp

[prairie flinter]

Thanks everyone for your input. Guess I should have included more info.  This is a .54 cal. C weight 38 in. swamped barrel.  Good to hear some other things to check besides my thumb job.  Realy coud,nt see how I could have gotten to far out of whack because I rotated the barrel every few twists  of the thumb.  I once changed the point of impact  on my smoothbore with some 600 grit and thumb and about 3 or 4 back and forths on the side I wanted to move p.o.i. to. Just was wondering if anyone had ever tried this.  Well,of to tear it down and do some measuring.

[prairie flinter]

O.K.  did some measuring and it looks like there is a little wow in the barrel.  Having a hard time getting a real accuate measure with my old junk caliper, but laying a straight edge on the barrel I get somewhere between .010 and .015 diferance side to side indicating a little bow to the right. Also noticed preaty consistant wood contact on the left side and not so much on the right. I'm going to remove a little wood from barrel channel and see if that helps.  After that I' not sure how procede.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

To check how much the barrel is deflected, I use a KNOWN straight edge, and mark the barrel completely around it's girth.  Then I insert number drills between the straight edge and the barrel to see if the gap is the same all the way around.

[prairie flinter]

  Just an update on my crooked shooter.  Scraped some wood, excess finish mostly, out of the barrel chanel as suggested by jerrywh.  Finley got a day when the wind was't  20 mph + and voila,was able to get my front sight back to center.  Who'd a thunk.  Thanks everyone for your help.

[KLMoors]

Wow, very cool. I was worried it might take more than that. Good outcome.