Forging a lockplate using a die

[Mark Elliott]

I want to follow up on a comment Jim Kibler made in another thread about the folks at the CW gunshop not welding on pans anymore but forming them in a die.   I would like some more information about that process.   Does anyone have anymore information?    My assumption is that this must be done by upsetting, but a picture of the die or dies would be very helpful.   

[Jim Kibler]

Mark,

Richard Sullivan from the CW gunshop showed me the die they use a while back.  This was in regards to a discussion of forming the pan from a single piece rather than relying on a forge weld.  I don't recall why they drew the conclusion, but it was their opinion that this was the process typically used for integral pans.  I don't remember the die well, but I'm pretty certain it allowed for a mass of previously formed material to be folded over, creating the pan.  I would contact George Suiter or Richard Sullivan.  If you need contact information, send me a message as I should have it.

Jim

[JTR]

Mark, Have you called CW and asked how they go about it? I'll bet with your interest and expertise they'd be more than happy to help!

And then you could pass it along to all us interested guys!

John

Oops, posted about the same time as Jim's comment...

[Mark Elliott]

I will just e-mail George Suiter about it.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have heard the die theory before. Keep us posted, please.

[Darrin McDonal]

I have photos of the CW dies for the lock plate, cock, pan bolster. I will look for them and post them if I find them.
Darrin

[Ed Wenger]

There's also some information about this in the Journal of Historical Armsmaking Technology, Vol I



            Ed

[Mark Elliott]

Ed,

That's the thing; those are the really old techniques in JHAT vol 1.   They were updated again in, I believe, Vol 5; but apparently,  the CW gunshop has developed a new technique for forging lock plates with integral pans without welding.   That is what I am interested in.   In my practice work,  I have been welding up the plates for bolster and pan, but you are never quite sure you have a good weld until you are done filing the plate.    That is a problem; although, it is usually the edges I have a hard time getting fused, not the middle.   

[tallbear]

Mark
I believe from conversations with Gary that the way The Gunshop came to the conclusion that the pans were integral was by studying the wrought iron grain structure in several excavated lock examples .They were severely  rusted out showing the grain very clearly,which changed their thinking on how they were done in that area anyway.

Mitch

[Mark Elliott]

Mitch,

Gary never mentioned to me any techniques different from the update in JHAT Vol 5.     He talked to me about the grain structure being an issue in the forging of the cock and that lead to them splitting the bar to form the vertical post and the lower jaw.   It really doesn't matter though.    I sent George Suiter an e-mail and he responded that they planned to forge two locks in the next few weeks.    He said I was welcome to come down, hang around, ask questions, take notes and photos.   I just need to check back with him in two weeks to get a better idea which day(s) they will be doing it. 

Stay tuned.

[rich pierce]

But most Germanic locks do not have an integral pan, right?

[Acer Saccharum]

I believe continental locks had separate pans. Not sure about the later French locks. Every Germanic lock I have seen has a separate pan.

[J. Talbert]

Mark,
That sounds very appealing.  I hope you get the opportunity to go to CW and document the process.  If so, I look forward to seeing the pictures and hearing your take on the process.

Jeff

[Darrin McDonal]

Nope. I can't find those pictures. Too many folders. Sorry. I can say that one of the dies was flat with the lock plate shape depressed into it with the internal bolster. The other one was the lockplate simply as an outline on the die like as if you just made a deep engraved line in the shape of the lock plate itself. That way your forging would have the imprint of the plate that you would cut out.
Darrin