J.P.Beck rifles at the KRA show

[Don Getz]

I had the pleasue of looking at a great J.P. Beck rifle, along with a copy of the same gun made by Jud Brenan while he was
still living in Michigan.  The copy was that good that anyone would have a difficult time picking it out if you were merely
looking at or handling them without looking at the names.  These were on display at the KRA show this past week end....Don

[Jim Kibler]

Oh yes, I saw it.  Amazing and VERY convincing.  I'm sure this sort of thing makes some folks a little nervous.

[VP]

I think the neatest part of the Beck rifle was how Jud Brenan signed his name such that it looked like J. P. Beck signature. It was a classic piece of work.

VP

[Bart]

Does anyone have a few pictures of the rifles to share.

[VP]

Bart,
No pictures are allowed in the KRA gun room.

VP

[Curt J]

I saw them too.  Amazing work on the part of Jud Brenan.  I saw a number of things I would have loved to photograph, but it cannot happen there.

[brooktrout]

"Nervous"?  Why would copying a master old builder and signing his name make anyone "nervous"?  Oh, I see.  It could lead to a serious case of mistaken identity on the part of an unethical seller and a less than well informed buyer.  And sometime down the road a serious fraud materializes.  But it happens every day in the "art" world and recently I see it is also happening in the world of rare vintage wines.  Maybe a great gun and a great contemporary maker but also a poor decision to make a copy and then sign the name of another.
Yes, I'd say nervous is not a strong enough word.  At a minimum it's a poor decision.  Not something to take pride in having done IMO.

[Robert Wolfe]

Brooktrout,
 I think you misunderstood - Jud Brenan signed it with his name - not Beck's.

[brooktrout]

You are RIGHT!  I did misunderstand and thus regret my comments were inappropriate.  Sorry Mr. Brennan!  And thanks Mr. Wolfe for showing me the light!!

[JTR]

I saw it too, and it is a great copy.

Nothing to worry about now, but maybe in a hundred years or so it'll cause some confusion.

It was nice meeting some of you guys at the show!

John

[Buck]

The original had some pretty extensive work done to it.
John, Go Cherokee Girls!!!!!!!!!!
Buck

[JTR]

 

John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

There is so much written and recorded word about contemporary work these days, such as the one Jud did, that I doubt it'll be an issue in the future.  There's a huge difference in the amount of information available about contemporary guns, than there is about the originals.  That's why we 'attribute' now...just making educated comparisons.

[rich pierce]

The other question is who is going to be collecting Kentucky rifles 50 years from now and why will they be doing it.  Looking around at CLA and Dixons and not having yet been to a KRA meeting (blushing), I don't see many 20- or 30-something guys with that glint in their eye.  Looking at the current young folks with an interest in firearms or even history, I am not sure the focus is on the years of our nation's formation.  Today's younger collectors seem to be focusing on 1920s to 1960s industrial and transportation stuff (American Pickers) because it is accessible, affordable and can still be found in flea markets and junk shops, and it would fit well in a "man cave" whatever that is.

[brooktrout]

rich:  I could probably discuss this topic for hours but sure cannot write that much about it.  You have hit on a key aspect IMO of "collecting" as respect to attracting "young" people, those being "accessible, affordable and still can be found".  When items get to the prices of a typical contemporary and certainly a good quality original it takes a lot of people out of the picture and esp the "young" who have limited resources.  I wonder if the long rifle "habit" is not an acquired taste.  First order of business is that you have to "acquire" resources to feed the habit.  Secondly, I tend to feel that ones interest in history may heighten as one comes to points in life where they themselves may soon be a part of history.  I have been a gun owner and shooter since I was a wee lad.  Always had interest in "guns" but my interest seemed to result in owning what was available and affordable and even 50 years ago for me, that did not include long rifles but typical garden variety "London Fine Twist" percussion doubles and rusty Iver Johnson 32 cal pistols.  To me, long rifles are a rather deep subclass of firearms.  Simply put, unless one goes out looking for them they are generally not easy to run upon.  I routinely attend regional gun shows.  It's rare to find even one offered.  Run of the mill gun shops generally don't have any and when you do find them it seems that the sellers knows less than the LR enthusiast this prices are high, bordering outrageous.  So as to who will be collecting them and why.  My view is that future collectors will be collecting them for the same reasons people do today.  And who will they be?  Well, I bet there will be a relatively small body of middle aged to senior collectors who have "discovered" the significance of these guns and have a desire to make the spiritual connection because they understand.  I only have one good original gun.  It hangs proudly over my fireplace.  It has signs of hard use. But to the past owners, this gun  represented freedom and liberty.  It protected the family.  It provided food.  It gave the owners status in a new land full or threats and opportunity. This gun has endured experiences that would crush the spirit and resolve of citizens today and thus it also represents courage the like of which most of us will never know.

[Buck]

Brooktrout,
There are many variables that turn the younger interest away from collecting, I think that Rich hit it on the head but only partially. One of the most difficult issues I have run into is this; Many of the established collectors are looking for a 300 - 500% return on their pieces. This certainly makes it difficult for a younger man to get interested, if he can only afford a mediocre rifle at best why assert the effort or interest? I have been fortunate that the older collectors in my group have helped me afford a few good pieces, whether on time payments or taking a modest return, but it is not a common method most in this field care to employ. The future is with the younger generation, but if they can't afford it the older generations collections are worth nothing! 
Buck

[brooktrout]

So, might part of that comment be reduced to the notion that it can be an expensive "hobby"?  I think that's what I said.  And while other factors may figure in, my opinion is that cost is the primary one with the lack of interest in the history of these guns being the second.  Between those two, I think all other factors are minor.  And I currently feel that the younger generation will mature and reach a point where they have both the money and interest.  Time will tell and maybe I am naive about that.  I am not connected to a large well informed group of people with similar interest in long rifles.  But in my small world, probably more than 50% of those with interest today in long rifles are firearms enthusiasts with a lot of "modern" guns and contemporary shooting, even competitive experience who have most recently "discovered" the world of long rifles.  Example:  A friend accompanied me on the trip I make to a local maker to buy my first replica.  He had NO deep interest and claims to have wanted to go just for the ride.  Once there he made a purchase quite to his and his lady friends surprise.  Since then he has purchased 2 more.   And we are all old retired guys (AND GALS) who have managed to purchase many good originals and replicas in the last 7 or 8 months.  As I think back on my younger days of gun "collecting" long rifles just did not strike my interest and probably for the two reasons noted.  Happy to have made the discovery!

Also, a 300 to 500 % return makes it hard for anyone to buy IMO.  If I were super knowledgeable about prices, and I'm not, I would simply walk away for any offering that takes any gun to that price level.  But at the same time, if a dealer (I'll not call them a collector) manages to get a gun for a fraction of it's reasonable market value and then expects to realize market value, I am OK with that even if it were to yield such a return.  That might sound like double talk but hopefully my point is understood. 

[Buck]

Brooktrout,
I think the interest comes with the exposure, then like anything else the passion appears. Prices are a subject that is difficult to discuss, a collector who picked up a rifle in the 60s for $1200.00 and sells it today for $40,000.00 (because that is what the rifle is truly worth) is one thing. A guy who picks up a rifle for $10,000.00 a decade ago and sells it for $50,000.00 and is not forthcoming with details of restoration or improper provenance is a different story.

An individual earning a living as a dealer is a different story and I would agree. Again it is hard to discuss and boils down to buyer beware. If you buy a rifle that cost $12.00 200 years ago and pay $12,000.00 for it today you have paid a 1000% increase, guess its a hard one to escape!

Buck
 

[mr. no gold]

It's only an expensive hobby if you can't afford it. Now, as I see it, expensive is collecting Colt Patersons or Walkers! You will never find a 'good buy' on one of those, but a lot of digging can turn up a good long rifle: to wit, I found a Virginia Manufactory second model rifle dated 1807 on the lock plate, (still considered a KY Rifle), about four weeks ago and I paid less than a thousand dollars for it. So, there are a lot of good things still out there to be found, in my opinion. Good luck!!!
Dick

[E.vonAschwege]

I think we're getting a bit off the topic of J.P. Becks, but this is a subject that comes up often enough on the ALR and I'm sure in other forums as well.  As one of the younger folk in this field (I've still got 6 months left in my 20's!), I can see somewhat where my generation is coming from.  I don't want to speculate too much why younger generations may not be as interested in these historic pieces - I'd end up writing two or three pages worth if I did, so I'll save that for a new topic.

I wanted to own a longrifle or musket since I was about 7 or 8 years old and read a book in which the main character (a drummer boy in the Massachusetts militia) describes his dad's musket as being 6ft tall.  I asked my dad how tall 6 feet was, and I can imagine the look on my face when he held his hand 3 feet above my head.  That interest never died, even though it was another 10 years before I built my first rifle.  I don't know what exactly sparked my interest, but it's something that I try to pass on to others my age and younger, especially the appreciation for these pieces as functional works of art, as tools that were decorated and cherished by their owners, that played an important role in the early days of our country.  Even at the very liberal college I attended, peoples eyes would light up as I described these not as cold metal "guns" but as something far greater - that is, until they realized what they cost.

Like Dick says, there are still treasures out there to be found if one digs long enough.  The best piece in my collection was a mislabeled pile of 6 different chunks of wood at a gun auction.  It's something that probably has a 500% increase in value.  The rest don't have as much value, and most of my favorite pieces are actually European guns.  I don't spend money on run of the mill pieces that have had so much restoration done to be barely recognizable as the original piece it once was.  I'd rather spend $2000 on a fine original English or French fowler in good condition than a poorly restored longrifle with no discernible history or provenance.  What that ultimately means is that most Pennsylvania rifles that I'd be interested in owning are beyond my price range for the time being.  That is, until I find another piece of treasure tucked away in a dusty corner. 
-Eric

[Buck]

Eric & Dick well put.
Eric enjoy that last 6 months of your 20s, and Dick I hope I have enough of my faculties left (if I am blessed enough)to carry on when I reach the distance you have covered!
Buck
 

[Don Getz]

Being a collector of Snyder County guns, I did purchse one of the auction guns.   It did not have a good signature on the barrel.
I am certain that the barrel was replaced on this gun at some point in time, and had some "initials" lightly engraved on the
barrel.  After I got home from the KRA, I got my book by Chandler on patchboxes and barrel markings.  I found my gun among
those shown, it has the same patchbox and has the strange initials on the barrel.  At the time it was owned by a local friend
who had a few local guns.  I haven't checked the date on when Chandler did this book, probably in the 1950"s or 60's.  The
gun I bought was attributed to Mose Specht of Beavertown, Pa., and I am certain that he built it.  I have a lot of good pictuers
of a Mose Specht gun that I did some restoration on several years ago.  I also own an "attributed" Most Specht gun that I
purchased from a gentleman in Michigan.  These unknown factors are part of the fun of owning these things.  I also had a local
guy who showed me an Adam Specht rifle.  Adam was a brother to Mose and Elias, all three were gun builders.  I tried to buy
it but was turned down.    Some time later he told me that he sold "that" gun.  Found out it was to a local antique dealer and
will spend the rest of it's life in a closet.   Just part of this silly game we play...........Don

[brooktrout]

Buck:  No doubt prices are hard to discuss in that I have seen few threads which arrive at any consensus other than price is hard to discuss!  It was not my intent to take the discussion to any detailed price discussion other than to say prices keep younger people out of the world of long rifles, Eric being the exception.  And just to emphasize that I'd say not many young people are collectors of those early Colts, Remingtons, Sharps, etc either.

But there is no question that exposure to the long rifle can help feed the interest.  I wish more LR enthusiasts were more active in the normal run of the mill gun world.  But it still seems that we are a subculture and finding the door is not easy.  One thing I have concluded about price and affordability.  The greater ones appetite for the hobby the more affordable the objects of our interest become. It's also nice to have a peaceful situation on the home front where "she" shares the interest as deeply as "he".  After the purchase of my second replica my wife said she had enough!  No more....until she got one of her own suited to a smaller shooter.  Happy to say that gun should be in its final stages of being made and she will have it very soon.  Which puts me back in a position to buy something else!   

[brooktrout]

Have to add a comment to Mr. Getz's post.  The mystery of these guns has proved to be one of the biggest factors to my interest.  Having clues but only small ones seems to bring more excitement to the ownership.  I became deeply involved with the one original that I have after seeing it.  Due to what I considered its poor condition I walked away saying I would never buy a gun like that!  Then those small details seemed to creep out.  I became increasingly interested in trying to solve the who and where puzzle.  It seemed impossible and to some degree it may never be completely solved but I came to some good conclusions after weeks of research.  It was also enjoyable to work the seller who did not want to sell it originally as it had been in her family for generations.  It was NEVER a discussion about price until the very end when she agreed to sell it.  I sort of felt like I had had an "affair" with this rifle.  We spent many days and weeks together and it was hard to get "her" out of my mind.  Sick!, I know, but lots of fun!

[rich pierce]

  One thing I have concluded about price and affordability.  The greater ones appetite for the hobby the more affordable the objects of our interest become.

There's a lot of truth to that!