Long Range Sidelock shooting

[frontier gander]

Got out to 150 yards this afternoon with the 58cal Hawken and am ready to drop a doe come September! 2 clicks up puts me perfectly out to 150 yards with 100gr Goex 2f, .020" Mink Oil Lubed patch and .570" Hornady round balls.



Top group was with the bore swabbed completely clean of fouling with no color on the patch. That far left was my fault as I felt the rifle bump over to the left as I squeezed the trigger. The other 2 in the center were Aprox 2 1/2" apart.

The lower 3 in the white were also with a swabbed bore between shots, but left lightly blue after running a couple dry patches down the bore.


Now the real fun? Tomorrow if its nice, Its time to back out to 170 yards, the max range I can shoot on my property without having to climb a tree.

[galamb]

This brings a question to mind.

What is considered "long range" when it comes to side locks.

Your 150 yards is long for me even with modern rifles. With my BP stuff I keep it under 100 (70 is about my "comfortable" max).

So how long is "long"...?

[bob in the woods]

It is about 100 yds across my beaver pond. Max distance for a clear shot is maybe 120 yds or so.  In the woods, which is where I have shot all my deer except 1 , you are lucky to get a 50 yd shot; most are 25 rds or even less.  You can't shoot what you can't see !      If I want to stroll down to the pond before supper for a look, I usually take my rifle. For the rest of the time, I use my smoothbore.   My hunting is done with flintlocks, and round balls. For long range shooting [ targets] I go to my .45 cal muzzleloader and 535 gr bullets.  Good out to 1000 yds 

[moleeyes36]

...For long range shooting [ targets] I go to my .45 cal muzzleloader and 535 gr bullets.  Good out to 1000 yds...

Bob, I reckon I'm getting wimpy in my old age, but thinking of touching off a few rounds with that bullet over a stout load makes me wince.  

Mole Eyes

 

[Bob Roller]

 The Long Range Loads for the .451 muzzle loaders are usually shot prone and
this is loaded with a charge that big game can be killed with.I like the marvelous
craftsmanship of these rifles but no longer have a desire to to put on a lot of
padding/jackets to shoot them.
I built a decent representation of one of these.Started it in June 2001 and tested it in
September of 2003. It gave fine accuracy with 75 grains of old DuPont 3fg and the
Lyman Sharps Bailey 451112 that was lubed and weighed 485 grains.I consistently
clobbered the breech loaders with it at 500 meters with that load.
How long is "long range"? It depends on the time the rifle was a current,state of
the art piece.I would think a 45 patched ball weighing 140 grains would be doing
well at 200 yards but I have heard of farther shots being made. The purpose built
English "1000 yard specials"are a breed unto themselves and are in a special
category with features like the breech plug that are unlike the Hawken or other
round ball breeches.NO DRUMS AND NIPPLES for any reason.

Bob Roller

[frontier gander]

I do plan on working out to 200 yards with this rifle. I figure on a mule deer doe, 150 yards is a long shot as they are a touch harder to see when compared to an elk 

[bob in the woods]

The long range .45 rifle I have is much more comfortable to shoot if I wear my shooting jacket which has,,shoulder pad and elbow pads. Shooting prone, the elbows take a beating !    With round balls, I have seen some pretty darn good shooting done at 200 yards. Drift is always a factor, but if you know your gun, it can be compensated for. My friend shoots a .45 cal flintlock that I built for him. Usual hunting load [ whitetail deer] is round ball with 70 gr 3F.   There was a nice doe at the fence line behind his house..measured 200 yards,  and it was feeding calmly.  Last day of the season, so he loaded his rifle with 100 gr 3F, and steadied alongside a tree, shot it. A perfect lung shot. She jumped..looked around for a moment and then slowly sank to the ground.  Ball made a perfect .45 hole .  I think he was lucky.

[Daryl]

Maximum range for hunting in my opinion, is the range when you are shooting the fringe of a pie plate - ie: 9" from a hunting position- whatever position that might be whether it's prone, standing with a rest, kneeling with a rest - or no rest.  This is for deer sized game. Deer vary greatly in size, thus the pie plate's size could be adjusted for 'regions' of game size.

Ball power also comes into question. What is the maximum range is your rifle capable of producing a one shot kill, ie: holing both lungs to end up under the hide on the off side - even after punching through ribs?

[Daryl]

I would say that Gander's load needs more powder if going after elk or moose at 150 to 200yards, but is fully capable, accuracy and power wise of consistently taking deer to 200 yards - IF his accuracy holds.

[T*O*F]

That gun will have a trajectory like a basketball.  There are two considerations.  The first is accurate range estimation when making a shot at that distance.  The other is at what range must the gun be zeroed to obtain "point blank range" when shooting.  Point blank range is when the trajectory will remain within the kill zone when aiming at it.  That means the ball will never rise nor fall above or below nine inches.  To assume a kill shot otherwise is a folly.

Just because he can hit the pie plate at 200 yards does not guarantee he will not shoot over the animal at closer ranges.  Throw in an uphill or downhill shot into the mix and things become even more complicated.  When I was a Hunter Ed instructor, it never ceased to amaze me how many "experienced" hunters did not know how to zero their rifles for hunting.

[frontier gander]

I would say that Gander's load needs more powder if going after elk or moose at 150 to 200yards, but is fully capable, accuracy and power wise of consistently taking deer to 200 yards - IF his accuracy holds.

Killed elk at 150 with just a puny 80gr pyrodex rs charge in a 54cal cva mountain rifle i had some years back. Complete penetration through both lungs and 60 yard recovery.

The gun will shoot solid up to 130 grains 1 1/5fg Olde Eynsford. It just hurts.

[NWFlinter]

I shot my .54 Flinter with  RB and 120 grs FFg at a measured 200 yds on rifle range about 25 years ago.  Mostly I was just curious to see how it would do.  I could hold 5 shots in 2 ½” 100 yds at that time.  Can’t see good enuf now   

It shot better than I thought it would.  About 10 shots in a 10 or 12 inch group. 

Funny thing, there was a high power hunter shooting about the same size group at 200.  We were down at the targets during a cease fire.  He looked at my target, but did not say anything.  I supposed he thought he should be doing better with his scope sighted high power rifle or I should have been doing worse with my open sighted flinter.   

I shot on the American team at the long range black powder matches in Ottawa in ’93.  The British came over for a 3 way match with the Americans and Canadians for the 100 year anniversary of the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association.   Americans and Canadians all shot cartridge rifles, but all but one of the British shot original muzzle loading target rifles from the 19th century.  The match was 800, 900 and 1,000 yards.  There is nothing in shooting sports that even comes close to the thrill of making a bullseye at 1,000 yards with BP 

[Curt Lyles]

    Smiley said..  There is nothing in shooting sports that even comes close to the thrill of making a bullseye at 1,000 yards with BP  Smiley
 
  Yes there is,,Watchin one of your children shoot a tom turkey or whitetail buck deer at close range and then help put it in the freezer when your done.  Congadulations on some fine shootin BTW.Curt
 
 

[bob in the woods]

Welcome NW Flinter .   I shot the Ottawa matches for years. There are more and more using muzzleloaders. .I took a flintlock .45 cal to the long range matches a few years ago   

[Hungry Horse]

 British officers headed for the Americas, during the revolution, were warned to get their house in order before departure. The quote was " the American rebels can kill at three hundred yards with their long rifles".

                 Hungry Horse

[Long John]

The adequacy of a load depends on what your objectives are.  For deer hunting I am using a 54 caliber rifle loaded with 85 grains of GOEX FFFg and a 520 ball.  this load gets me about 1700 FPS at the muzzle.  It is sighted in to be right on at 75 yards.  this puts the ball right on at 25 yards, 1 inch high at 50 and about 2.5 inches low at 100 yards.  If my objective is to drop one of Daryl's moose I want a 75 yard, max, shot to be assured of adequate retained energy.  For deer I'll take a shot at 100 because I can hit and the energy needs are not as demanding.  If I want to hit an 18th century "red-coat"  I'll take that 300 yard shot because any kind of a body hit as well as upper arm or upper leg is apt to be lethal in view of the medical technology of the day.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Bible Totin Gun Slinger]

My old barrel served me well. I had a 5 gallon bucket at 265 yards, I could hit it 7 out of 10. I wore it out. Or rusted it out?
It was a 1 in 66 twist and my load was 100 grns behind a .490 ball, this load out performed Knights rifles twice for long distance.

My new barrel is a Gain Twist, While very accurate I can shoot a 4 inch diameter 10 inch tall coffee can at 175 yards every 2 out of 3.
I can't even come close to that bucket at 265 any more.   If I try to load it up as hot as my old barrel the pattern goes bad.

I have read about larger calibre guns shooting farther.   And these one guys up by Idaho  claim to shoot way farther than I can see, with side lock Hawken Rifles.

[Hadden West]

I don't like deer to be thought of as "Targets" I've done considerable long range shooting. Shooting at targets is one thing, blowing legs off animals is just wrong. Most people can't judge the distance accurately enough, and if you're going to use a range finder then you're no longer primitive rifle hunting. Wind drift is another big factor, especially on a projectile from a muzzle loading rifle. In my testing with modern in-line rifles, using 150grs. of Pyrodex, and a saboted 240 jacketed spire point bullet, a little high at 100 yards, the drop was 14 inches at 200 yards. This is moving at 2000 fps. And this is using a modern high power scope. People been watching to many Quigley down under movies.

I've hunted since I was 14 years old, and sadly, I have wounded some deer, but not by shooting at them at unreasonable distances, trying to prove---what?

[Long Ears]

Harden,
I'm pretty deadly with my Quigley rifle. I hit those tiny little Rams regularly at 500yds. Using a 45-70 and 62 grains of 2f Goex and iron sights. The answer to how long is long range is how good you are and how familiar you are with your rifle and load. Use your head for something other than holding your hat up. JMHO. Bob

[Hadden West]

Let's see, a 405 grain bullet moving at 1200 fps., sighted at 100 yards, had a drop of 300 inches at 500 yards, according to Hornady . You are good congradulations.

[Daryl]

HadenWest - the total drop of 300" actually means nothing.  One merely sights for the exact range one is shooting, when shooting silhouettes. After that, it is sight picture, breathing, triggers squeeze and follow through & LOTS of practice at those ranges - then the hit #'s increase.

The military loading of 70gr. rifle powder and a 500gr. RN bullet in a .45/70 actually has a trajectory of over 45 feet mid range to the 1,000 yard silhouettes - yet some guys, the masters, hit over 80% of them using similar or even lighter powder charges of 60 to 65gr.

The engineers said the Billy Dixon shot was impossible - yet it happened - yes - even Billy said it was a 'Scratch Shot'. Can't quite remember - 1,355yards seems to ring a bell. Seems the engineers math said the bullet wouldn't go that far - the Sandy Hook trials of the 1880's showed a .45/70 issue load with 500gr. bullet had a max range of around 3,500yards, and over 2,500yards with the 405gr.  At those extreme ranges, the 500gr. bullets still penetrated over 9" of solid pine, when tests proved that under 1/2" penetration on pine was enough penetration to kill a man or fatally wound a horse.

Are these hunting ranges? No - they are 'target shooting ranges'.

[bob in the woods]

The rams at 500 metres don't care if you hit them in the nose, the butt, or gut shoot them..they fall over when hit mith my 45-100 Sharps or my muzzleloader shooting 540 gr PP bullets.  If I can't call my shots, I don't shoot when hunting.
Even with my .62 flintlock , a moose at 200 yds is starting to look smallish. It's not the size of the animal..it's the target area of the animal that counts.  With my 10 bore and a round ball, I will take a shot at a moose at 100 yds or so.
With my .62 rifle I stretch that out to 150 yds or so.  I say "or so" because 150 yards has a way of pacing off at 200 if the moose is big.  In the hunting field, you don't always have the luxury of time when guessing/estimating distance.

[Hadden West]

I have a Shiloh 45/110, and I am very aware of what it will do. Shoot whatever you want. I shoot 300 and 400 yards regularly, and would like to shoot farther. but that's the limit I have, to set up a range. I also shoot 45/70, flintlocks, and several center fire rifles, and long range hand guns. I shoot at a gun club, and was a machinist for 33 years, and done gun smithing in my early machining years. I still build my own rifles, and build rifles used for competitive shooting.

Good shooting, catch you later.