Copying other's work

[Dan Fruth]

I have been building rifles since 1972 and I have always copied a rifle from the past. I recently found a rifle by Abraham Henry that is almost a bench copy of the Wm. Antes rifle found in RCA 1 as well as the KRA book "Moravian Gun Making" page 95. It seems this inclination to copy others work is a common theme, and it is interesting to see it done "back in the day". Just currious on anyone elses thoughts on the subject, as well as to who do you think was the copy...Antes or Henry?

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3114.msg29369#msg29369
This is the link to the Henry rifle.

[Archie Otto]

I don't know enough about the history to say who copied who, however, I don't see any problem with copying other builders work.  Very few artists, writers, designers or builders have not been inspired by a previous work.  It's not plagiarism when the source material is cited and it's not a fake when the real artist signs it.  Even a generic rifle has elements of some other styles.   

[rich pierce]

If you compare the wooden patchbox Albrecht rifle to contemporary work by Dickert, there are a lot of similarities.  It looks like folks came to Lancaster to get a Lancaster rifle, and the gunsmiths there often followed a similar architecture and used similar furniture and carving styles.  When elsewhere, they may have either done it their way or someone else's.

[Dan Fruth]

I guess I was amazed to see a rifle made within a few years of the original that was essentially a clone, and by another maker. I don't have the computer skills to post a photo of the Henry and the Antes here on this post, but seeing them together is striking.....Dan

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I agree with much of what's already been said. I think the old masters did indeed get inspiration from their peers. I think that's how a "School" developed.

When I build a rifle I have only research photos and rarely measurements to go by, but with this information I can build a rifle "in the style of" an old master or school. This gives me guidelines and still allows me the freedom to modify individual details using the guidelines of the school. So by doing this each rifle "in the style of" is still unique, but historically correct.

[Stophel]

Well, 200 years ago, it was not so much "copying" another gunsmith, but building guns the way you were trained to by your old master.
 

[sqrldog]

Dan
I agree with Stophel gunsmiths often reflected the work of the master gunsmith they  learned from as an apprentice. This is even true today for riflesmiths that undergo a formal training with a master gunsmith.
Some later changed styles as they developed their own shops or went to work in another area or shop. You are right in  your comparison of the two rifles. They show a close relationship in carving and architecture. Up to and including what appears to be guards from the same master. I spent some time researching and looking at the Antes while talking with Mark Silver about getting him to build a rifle based on the Antes for me . He made the rifle and it is a really great rifle to hold and shoot. One of the things I noticed is the lock has undergone a change. In the RCA and KRA books the lock has a bridle on the frizzen and in the Moravian book is sans bridle wirh other cosmetic changes.  The lock isn't represented as the original lock but looks good either way. My rifle has a bridle on the lock. Tim

[Dan Fruth]

The point I'm getting at is this...These 2 men have no connection, other than they were both Moravians and gunsmiths. Antes worked for a time in Philadelphia and then moved to Northumberland county. Henry worked in Lancaster county.....So my question is how did Henry become familiar with this unique Lancaster influenced rifle by Antes. Henry made his rifle almost identical to the Antes piece...Same patchbox design, same truncated C scroll ( quite different from the mainstream Lancaster pattern), both have 47" barrels, and both have the rear sight well down the barrel. And the feature that sets these rifles apart from the normal Lancaster pattern is the graceful curve from the breech to the toe, which is more Bucks county than Lancaster. The Bucks county rifles were yet in the future when these rifles were made. I know I'm being anal here, but these rifles are outside the norm for the standard Lancaster pattern of the period....Dan

[rich pierce]

Dan, good thoughts and conversation.  I think there is enough variety in Lancaster rifles to suggest that a gently curved buttstock was not out of the norm.  There's a fine small rifle by "J. Feree" that used to be at the Landis Valley museum in the 1980s, that comes to mind.  It is #76 in Shumways Rifles of Colonial America.  Check it out and compare to #77 which is more sophisticated and a classical triangular buttstock.  But I love #76.  With the tiny guard, it looks like a boys or lady's rifle.

Still, how 2 nearly identical rifles signed by different makers?  A mystery.  Surely the men knew each other, both were Moravian gunsmiths.

[tallbear]

Dan


William Henry worked in Nazareth PA(next door to Christian Springs).We know this because of a wonderful pair of pistols marked Wm. Henry  Nazareth .It is likely that he was there the same time as Antes and was associated with other Moravian gunsmiths of the period around Christian Springs  , Albrecht,Dickert et. all. Look at Christian Springs for the connections of these two rifles rather than Lancaster and I think you will find the answers you're looking for!!

Mitch Yates

[Curt Lyles]

Dan  That is a mity fine copy of Mr Antes rifle you have on your site ,Excellent workmanship ,.Curt