Author Topic: So. Mtn Walnut filler?  (Read 5527 times)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« on: July 12, 2014, 12:59:17 AM »
So what do you think about what the old fellas did in Appalachia to fill the grain on a black walnut stock for their hog or squirrel rifle?  Some black gunk?, nothing? ???
« Last Edit: July 12, 2014, 01:00:04 AM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19446
    • GillespieRifles
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 01:24:57 AM »
Dirt ;D
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Long Ears

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 720
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2014, 01:37:39 AM »
My bet, they used jelled BLO and rubbed it in with burlap or other coarse fabric thus pressing it into the open grain. When was burlap invented? I've been going to try this on a scrap but I'm out of round to it. Bob

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4336
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2014, 03:12:30 AM »
Just from the nature of the rifle, I'd think nothing. Just natural use/abuse.

John

John Robbins

Offline volatpluvia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
  • Doing mission work in sunny south, Mexico
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2014, 05:34:22 AM »
I have built two gonnes with American black walnut, and various other things.  My father built many modern stocks of American black walnut.  Neither he nor I have ever used any kind of filler.  I have never had a problem with the open grain being visible.  In my humble opinion there is no need to fill the grain.  If you use any kind of finish that you sand between coats, you level the finish and it has flowed into and sealed the open grain.  Each successive coat makes the filling more complete.
If you use BLO, you fill the grain as you rub each coat in.
I just don't see the need for filler.
I really have doubt that the boys centuries ago used any filler as such.  I have handled a very few stocks from the last couple of centuries and I didn't not take note of any filler and I was impressed with the way the grain was so pleasing to look at, even on military muskets.
Just my tupence.
volatpluvia
I believe, therefore I speak.  Apostle Paul.

Offline Habu

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2014, 08:32:49 PM »
My bet, they used jelled BLO and rubbed it in with burlap or other coarse fabric thus pressing it into the open grain. When was burlap invented? I've been going to try this on a scrap but I'm out of round to it. Bob
Not sure when it was invented, but it began showing up in Europe in the first half of the 19th century. 

At least one of the southern mountain rifles I've worked on was finished with a brown varnish, which filled the grain quite well. 

wet willy

  • Guest
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 04:22:13 AM »
Another technique for filling open pores on walnut is wet sanding, wiping, dry, re-apply.

After the first thin coat or two of finish, wet sand using 400 grit Wet-or-Dry dipped in the finish, sand, then wipe dry before it hardens. By sanding and wiping you are filling the grain with a combination of wood dust and finish. Eventually, perhaps 4 to 8 applications, the finish is glass smooth. Try finishing the wet sanding process with 800 or 1000 grit paper.

Do a small area at a time to confirm you've flattened the old finish into the pores.

Offline Gaeckle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1347
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 04:27:39 AM »
Pine pitch, tar?

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 07:21:48 AM »
So what do you think about what the old fellas did in Appalachia to fill the grain on a black walnut stock for their hog or squirrel rifle?  Some black gunk?, nothing? ???

Probably a  fairly viscous  boiled linseed oil or a soft linseed oil varnish, that compared to modern varnish was rather viscous this would be a one coat finish since its too viscous to really soak in.
Or no filled finish from the maker at all. A using gun can be given a good dose of a lighter weight boiled oil, let soak a few minutes and then wiped dry and its ready to hunt with the same day. I have done this.
If a viscous oil is used then it will take some work to fill the grain, at least a few days since it needs to be put on then worked back to the wood surface when its set enough to be pretty gummy. Remembering that a lot of the old growth walnut was finer pored than some of todays it may well have filled easier. If a "brown" varnish was used it would have been painted or rubbed on, perhaps over the metal parts as well. Once dry the gun was good to go.
This was a common finish for a very long time in the American gun trade. Also if exposed to the chemicals produced by burning coal linseed oil will eventually turn black or very nearly so. So many of the really dark varnishes found on original rifles were not that dark when new. The 1870s Bettis rifle I had a chance to examine was finished in brown varnish and had scraper marked that indicated that the scraper was not smoothly sharpened but left a pretty rough surface that was then covered and smoothed by the varnish coating.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2014, 07:33:32 AM »
Boiled linseed oil will fill walnut pretty quickly if its properly formulated and well thickened, too thick to drip usually.
Smear it on and let set till its just past gummy and rub off to wood with burlap or other coarse cloth or for moderns on uncarved stocks 0000 steel wool. Repeat till filled. In summer here I can do at least 2 coats a day if hung in the sun. Usually 3-4 will fill Black Walnut if the oil is heavy bodied and the stock was first sealed with a light weight oil with some real turp added, 20% or so then let dry for a day or so. But the oil has to have good drying properties as well as being heavy bodied. So the as bought needs to be cooked in house and extra drier added and maybe some resin as well to make if more water repellant. Then let a jar or two remain open to further thicken. Then break the "skin" to get to the oil as needed.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

DaveP (UK)

  • Guest
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 02:34:48 PM »
I'm willing to accept that rubbing off a gummy finish could be a valid technique if you knew exactly what you were doing. All the same I would tend to avoid it, having had the experience of trying to remove one in a crisis. I ended up sanding my way back to a fresh start anyhow  :(
I've had satisfactory results on walnut with wet sanding, but a slightly different approach to the one described above. I just raised the grain, allowed it to dry and went straight in with my finish on a piece of 400 grit paper, doing a small area at a time, working the "mud" into the pores with my fingertips and wiping most of the excess off with my hand. When dry I used old 400 grit paper to clean the surface and then rubbed on oil till happy.
The grain texture is still slightly visible but I like that. Sometimes a perfect finish can look a bit "plasticky".

Obviously this depends on the modern luxury of very fine abrasive paper - 400 grit in my case. Would there have been anyway for a rural gunsmith to do something similar?

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 04:49:48 PM »
Not knowing what one is doing is common here. I often have retrain myself on things I "misfile" between projects.
However, a lot of people here spend so much time finishing wood that I would give up in disgust or slash my wrists. Most of this extra work comes from using modern mass produced finishes which for the most part are made for indoor use and are 70% mineral spirits with almost no solids to fill anything with. Spar varnish, the good stuff and some tung oils are OK but  thinner than was used by gunsmiths back in the day and generally full of stuff like Stoddard Solvent. Many modern finishes are too hard and brittle. From reliable reports Permalyn falls into this category. As do many of the old finishes used on furniture and musical instruments. On Maple unless its very poorly prepared (like the Bettis rifle mentioned above, once its had a soaking coat of lighter oil and turpentine a very nice finish can be done is one or maybe 2 coats with a thicker oil. But like many things one must have patience since it will not fully develop for a few days or even longer in some cases. Linseed also tends to dull somewhat when its not handled. But even a years old finish that looks a little flat will brighten right up just by handling or rubbing with the hand. If some resin is not used, I cheat as previously stated on other posts and use Grumbacher's Oil Painting Medium III added to finish to add some resin. Its easier then buying the resin and cooking it in. When it still had all the ingredients listed the only thing it had that was not "period" was some lemon solvent IIRC. The new bottle don't show whats in it.
The problem with stock finish in the modern would is that by about 1900 the technology was  lost. All paint and varnish was now factory made and by the 1940s-50s people who did stock work were jumping though all sorts of flaming hoops to finish walnut. All because they did not understand old school stock finishes and were using stuff like "bar top varnish" which was harder than heck apparently, and other factory made stuff made for INDOOR USE.
The linseed oil available was just paint thinner and not properly prepared for stock work. Though it will do a paint on let it soak, wipe it off finish in a day for a hunting gun. Who needs a glittery SMR, for example, anyway?
True if you let the Linseed oil "varnish" (back in the day anything that would dry to a shine was varnish) set too long its gonna resist removal. And it gets all ugly and wrinkly in a couple of hours in the sun. The initial sealer coat will generally come up out of the pores with the warmth but since this is not glass hard (or close it sometimes seems) they will come off. Or one can go out and wipe it down with a hand or soft cloth when they appear. Since I do not want the finish too hard to remove easily I do not put a coat on to set overnight for this reason. I do all the application and removal during the day. Unless its winter when there is no outdoor sun to use. Then things get somewhat slower.
There are people here that simply detest Linseed Oil for a finish. But I have seen original guns with Linseed varnishes that, unless worn away still had ALL the their varnish over 100 years later and the finish was not broken ever at rounded dents unless severe. This applies to Hawken rifles like the Bridger Rifle, in Helena to guns of the post Civil War era such as Ballards and other BL or late ML. If the finish is REALLY looked at it may amaze some to see that the brush patterns  or skin ridges of the applier are still visible. The stuff was pretty thick and did not "flatten" well.
But people for the most part do not take the time to experiment and they believe labels which generally apply to painting interior trim or a chest of drawers.
Are there store bought options? Sure. I used to top coat wet sanded stocks with Linspeed. I DO NOT recommend wet sanding its a toxic process with any modern varnish. One can take Tru-Oil once described to me as a cheap phenolic varnish and mix it about 50-50 with off the shelf linseed oil and it will work well. Its got good color and will be harder than off the shelf products. This product is one a DO use for very minor touchups on stocks in a "crisis" but its so few and far between that I usually have to buy a new bottle to do it.  I have heard good reports about Chambers Oil finish and there are some others from specialty wood working/finishing companies that do not look too bad and have smaller percentages of solvent or none at all.
 
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

ironwolf

  • Guest
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 08:04:44 PM »
  Jim Chambers has available a black filler that works great on porous ABW.  I myself use the commercial finish "Linspeed" thinned 50/50 with aged turpentine for penetration.  Then go to full strength for finish.  Many people don't like Linspeed, I suspect they don't know how to use it.
  John Bivens used it, good enough for me.  An article of His is printed in "Gunsmith Tips & Projects" on its proper use.  My Dad said it was Army issue to rub down their M1 Garands.  It is very similar to the old time mixture of BLO/Turp/Varnish.  Wood does need to be whiskered properly.  Sorry If this reply was redundant as to the other post, some were to wordy to read

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: So. Mtn Walnut filler?
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 09:21:03 PM »
The main issue with linspeed is its pale color. Darker oil especially or any natural oil will give a better look to wood than transparent finishes often found in the hardware store. Transparent plastic finishes are especially known for making wood look like the grain was painted on. No depth. These produce a very "dead" looking stock compared to a natural oil.
While I would prefer a darker color Linspeed is better than most store bought finishes loaded with solvents.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine