poor farmers and burst barrels

[Levy]

the Spanish often carried their escopetas on horseback in a scabbard slung across their back, that was called a fundo or ord (Brinkerhoff and Chamberlain).  Partial remains of one was recovered from a 1715 Plate Fleet wreck here in Florida.  The scabbard fragments were fairly heavy/stiff leather like a modern holster.  the wooden remains of the forestock were still in the scabbard.  My observation would be that it would be slower to retrieve a long firearm from a soft case than it would from a stiffer one.

James Levy

[Dphariss]

I have the opinion that many long rifles were cut down so the frontiersman could carry it easier when on horse back. Ran into a old journal that stated  just that the long rifle carried across the saddle could easily become wedged in the trees on a narrow trail.So the rifles carried into the west were often cut down for the ease of handling.

Yet the rifles made specifically for the western trade before 1840 had 40-44" barrels.  I'm no horseman but angling a rifle forward across the saddle is not that hard.

We want reasons to have shorter guns.  It's that simple. We were raised, most of us, on short light centerfire or rim fire guns, were told in endless outdoor life articles that shorter and lighter was better, yet we get confronted with long heavy originals, and it doesn't compute to us.  This is why TC, CVA, and countless other BP rifle manufacturers featured models with at most 32" barrels and not over 7.5 or 8 pounds in weight.  So your average cartridge gun user could make the transition.

Most had long barrels but not all. But of course long is relative. Compared to a 26-28" barreled Manton a 36" barreled Hawken is long. The Hawken brothers were making 34-36" barreled rifles by the mid 1830s.
I don't know why the American Fur Company,for example, was ordering rifles with 40-48" barrels for the Missouri trade unless the customers called for them.

Dan

[Dphariss]

anyone here ever carried a rifle on horseback without a scabbard?  I have to a limited amount. Theres a chap I know that goes on many wilderness rides. He has worn the for end of several rifles almost through to the barrel and damaged his saddle as badly as the rifle.  I ride a Tennesse Walker (known for their smooth ride) and its difficult at best carrying a rifle without a scabbard. The "chap" rides a mustang, its brutal carrying a rifle on a horse day in and day out. Of course that was in the day when men were men

What saddle? Just curious. It seems to me that wearing both the rifle and the saddle indicated someone trying a little too hard to look like he thinks he should. Back in the day rifles were far to hard to come by out here to do this to them and again covers, at least for MLs, were common.  I have used a loop some with a Santa Fe and its not very inconvenient and at least a double barrel percussion will stay on longer than the rider in some situations . Back when I was working as a guide/packer I used a modern type that runs more fore and aft of on the horse since I was dealing with pack strings and on narrow trails in the timber a lot and from experience even a 36" barreled trade gun takes a lot of attention when carried across the saddle on a trail with trees on either side and maybe a horse that likes to irritate you. We were generally on horses that were ridden by dudes all summer before hunting season and had a lot of bad habits. Wearing spurs helped.
For those who do not know a loop is a thing as seen in some Huffman photographs of the 1870s-1880s in Montana. There is one with his heavy Sharps in it. Muzzle down on the left side. Now did he RIDE with it like this? I cannot say, I looked at the rifle years ago when I was at Shiloh but took no photos. Its heavy enough to unbalance a saddle though. I would also point out that unless he traveled to the Black Hills or the Bighorns Huffman did not see many trees.
The Bridger Hawken in Helena has minor wear at the front of the lock panels that seem to indicate its being hung in this manner.

This looks like a military rifle, a "needle gun" perhaps or Rolling block in a "loop".

Naturally I can't find the one I was thinking of on the WWW. Its far more illustrative of the "loop".

Dan

[Habu]

In The Prairie Traveler: a Handbook for Overland Expeditions, Captain Marcy described the loop like this: 

Of all the methods I have used, I prefer, for hunting, a piece of leather about twelve inches by four, with a hole cut in each end; one of the ends is placed over the pommel of the saddle, and with a buckskin string is made fast to it, where it remains as a permanent fixture.  When the rider is mounted, he places his gun across the strap on the saddle, and carries the loose end forward over the pommel, the gun resting horizontally on his legs.  it will now only be necessary occasionally to steady the gun with the hand.  After a little practice the rider will be able to control it with his knees, and it will be found a very easy and convenient method of carrying it.  When required for use, it is taken out in an instant by simply raising it with the hand, when the loose end of the strap comes off the pommel.

At another point in the book, Capt. Marcy particularly recommends what he calls a "California saddle" (much like a Mexican saddle, with a flat pommel and slightly different tree).  I don't ride much any more, but over the years I've used a loop on a variety of saddles (western stock, McClennan, Crow-style, English).  (I must admit I've not tried it with a sidesaddle, I'll leave that for the more experimentally-inclined among us. . . .) 

If the saddle has a horn (as on the Western and Crow-style saddles), you can tie the loop to the horn.  If not (as on the McClennan--which is really not much more than a Spanish/Mexican saddle without a horn) and the English saddles, you use saddle string to attach the loop.  In both cases, you carry the rifle across your legs on the rider's side of the pommel or horn.  On a saddle with a high pommel like the McClellan, it is simple to carry the rifle, and it rides very well.  When riding an English saddle, I gave up and carried it in my hands. 

[dmb1953]

My Gurd of York [old name for Toronto Ontario] fullstock long rifle, circa 1827? has a great deal of wear on the stock just ahead of the trigger guard.  Up here we think this was caused by the rifle carried  across the saddle on horseback.  Of perhaps interest this rifle was made for Samual Harris, a surveyer and co-founder of Cooksville Ontario.  He was from Penn., returned there , killed in a barroom brawl.  Family returned to Canada and luckely brought the rifle back to live with me.

[RAT]

Alfred Jacob Miller illustrated slings being used with the rifle slung across the back of the rider in the muzzle down position.

Scabbards (covers) were common in the fur trade... but they weren't the modern hard leather scabbards that fasten to the side of a saddle. They were fabric or brain tanned leather covers. The Hudson Bay Company furnished red trade wool covers with their trade guns and they were very popular. Quite a few Canadian artists illustrate these in use.

I seem to remember seeing a painting by Karl Bodmer showing one of these slung across the back with the gun (or perhaps gun-stocked war club) butt-up sticking out of the cover. There is a video called "Native Son" about a man and his son from Old Crow Yukon. He carries his Marlin 336 in a similar cover slung across his back. He simply tied a cord at the muzzle of the cover and another at the lower corner of the opening at the other end.

Burst muzzles were common on trade guns because the indians typically loaded their guns without patching, or often using grass for wadding. The ball, not being seated well, would move forward over time as the loaded gun was carried. When running buffalo, balls were typically dropped in loose and would roll forward when the muzzle was lowered at the buffalo. When these guns fired the barrel would burst near the muzzle. The trade fort gunsmiths often cut barrels down for these folks to keep the gun in use.

I've read several period journals that describe white Americans loading their rifles in just this manner, so I'm guessing bust muzzles happened to them too.

However, my opinion is that guns were shortened primarily to lengthen their service life when the muzzle was worn from ramrod use.