FITP

[Jerry V Lape]

I had a similar problem when I first started shooting.  Solved it with a couple changes to my procedure and equipment.   First, since the touch hole was too far forward I reshaped the pan with a small grinder to more closely center it under the hole.  Installed a Chambers white lightening liner and opened to 1/16".  Went to a .535 ball.  I do wipe between shots but make sure the  patch is "just" damp so I don't make wet sludge. Here in AZ with the extremely low humidity fouling gets pretty hard after just a couple shots so wiping is a must for me.  Also, I ground the diameter of the jag down a little so it didn't wipe on the way down, just on the drag out.  I pick after loading.  I am not a target shooter but do have to practice.  I shoot my hunting loads almost exclusively.  Be patient and you will work out your rifles requirements. 

[bob in the woods]

When vents became too large, they were often fixed by threading in a plug and redrilling. You could do that and move your vent over easily.

[Natureboy]

  I've read a number of opinions that having priming powder in the vent creates a "fuze" affect, slowing ignition, so I try to keep the level of priming
powder below the vent, which is positioned level with the top of the pan.  My Queen Anne lock has a frizzen with protruding base, which tends to squash the priming powder flat if I put too much in.  So now I'll try the larger balls with the same linen patches, and maybe some thinner ticking patches if the
535s require hammering to seat the charge.  As it is, with 530 balls and linen lubed with Hoppe's #9 +, I have to push hard, 4-6 inches at a time, but don't need to hammer away.  I'll also try Neatsfoot oil without wiping between shots.  Almost all the lubes boast that they make the bore so clean that
you don't need to wipe, so I'll try Neatsfoot and Shenandoah Valley as well.  I'll eventually come up with the right combination of everything, which seems as difficult as physicists finding the answers to space time and relativity.

[bgf]

I think the fuse effect is an old wives tale, though I could be wrong.  I put my chunk guns vent low on purpose and bank against the vent, and it goes off like a caplock as long as everything else is in order... 

Try 10 oz. Bull denim from Joanna -- works consistently well with either 5 or 10 thousandths under balls.  Only lube needed is spit or water for targets.  I don't need to wipe for a 20 shot offhand match with .50 cal. GM, .495 balls, 10 oz. Bull denim and water as lube.  Start with a hammer or slap to the starter, but they go all the way down easily.  If the crust starts to build up at the ball seat, wet your patches just a bit more.  Thin patches and oil are the recipe for fouling.

I usually wipe during chunk matches but I shot two a few weeks ago without wiping and stayed in the black most of the time anyway...I caused a couple of fliers and knew it when I pulled the trigger.

[Larry Pletcher]

The fuse effect is a MYTH.  In tests that included 20 trials in multiple sessions and data averaged, the fastest positioning of priming powder is against the barrel -- even if the vent is covered.  This testing is not new; it was published in the March 2009 issue of MuzzleBlasts and has been available on the web longer than that.

The first link below is the intro to the 6 parts of the testing sessions.
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/

Part 6, below, deals with a covered vent.  included is a video that shows how the testing was done. There were exhaustive trials; I think over 200 individual tests.I am convinced beyond any doubt that the fastest ignition comes with the priming against the barrel - even if the vent is covered.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments/

I am also convinced that the leading cause of slow or failed ignition is fouling. During testing the following steps were taken to ensure a squeaky clean vent:
1.Wipe barrel between shots.
2.Second cleaning rod designed to wipe the vent liner.
3.Pan brushed.
3.Pipe cleaner used through the vent.
4.Compressed air through the vent.
(While these steps may seem unnecessary for normal shooting, I felt justified when trying to obtain meaningful data.)

Regards,
Pletch

[Natureboy]

Pletch,
   You've done an incredible job of researching this issue, and debunking the thought that placing the priming powder away from the vent should be
read by everyone shooting flinters.  I do just about everything you do in your method, except that I don't carry my air compressor to the range.  I wipe between shots, and clean the vent with both a brass rod and pipe cleaner AFTER I've wiped the barrel, in case that forces fouling into the vent.  My vent is positioned even with the top of the pan, although it is about 1/16 back of center.  From now on, I'll be sure to bank the priming powder (Goex 4F) close to the vent, leaving the pan fully covered with powder to ensure good ignition.  Your use of the heated wire took the variable of flint sparks out of the equation, and that's something the shooter has to be careful of--the condition of the flint and how evenly it strikes the frizzen.
   Do you think that the main powder charge should be pushed out of the vent with a pick?  I use 2F in the barrel, so would it prevent the fire from effectively reaching the main charge if some grains of it are left in the vent after loading?
   Your use of a camera with a short barrel is very instructive, and saves me the trouble of looking down the barrel which, mine being 42 inches long, is very hard to do.  Once.  I need to have at least one eye.
   All shooters should thank you for your very clever research.  I wish I could get to the range tomorrow.

[Larry Pletcher]

Pletch,
  snipped. . . .
   Do you think that the main powder charge should be pushed out of the vent with a pick?  I use 2F in the barrel, so would it prevent the fire from effectively reaching the main charge if some grains of it are left in the vent after loading?
 snipped. . . .

Funny you should ask that question. . .Here is a link to a test we did trying to find the answer:  http://www.blackpowdermag.com/filled-vent-test-is-it-slower/

The numbers were so close that I suspect filled vent vs open vent is statistically insignificant.  The slowest trial was from the filled vent trials, but the fastest one was also.This perhaps is a smaller variable than flint edge, powder placement, grain size, and the many other variables connected to flint ignition.

I have a liner in my rifle and use fffg in the barrel. When I prime I can usually see barrel powder at the entrance of the vent. When I prime against the barrel, my prime is practically touching the barrel charge. I don't think it gets better than that.  It is my opinion that two charges that close together ignite as one charge. 

Dan Phariss has a photo of a vent where the barrel charge is visible through the vent. Perhaps he will post that photo. BTW, Dan is very knowledgeable; I pay attention to his posts.

Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

I have a liner in my rifle and use fffg in the barrel. When I prime I can usually see barrel powder at the entrance of the vent. When I prime against the barrel, my prime is practically touching the barrel charge. I don't think it gets better than that.  It is my opinion that two charges that close together ignite as one charge. 

Dan Phariss has a photo of a vent where the barrel charge is visible through the vent. Perhaps he will post that photo. BTW, Dan is very knowledgeable; I pay attention to his posts.

Regards,
Pletch

exactly!

[hanshi]

I also agree the "fuse effect" is a frankenmyth.  It doesn't even make logical sense.  Thanks, Pletch, for proving it.

[Vomitus]

 My big ol' roundface English with flint mounted bevel down has a terrific lock time. Being a big lock,it has a big pan. With 4f, I drop some into the pan and flatten it with my thumb. This covers the bottom of the pan and those funny little ridges discussed in another thread, hold it all in. I don't get many panflashes without lighting the main. When I get a flash and no ignition,the first check is to see if my rock is tight. And guess what,if it works loose, I get a weak spark. This has become my favourite lock. Big rock,big cock, big pan! Big flash!

[WadePatton]

So no one else wants to address the fouling accumulation so thick that it moves his loading level so much that he needs a scraper in 10 shots, even with all that wiping?

[Vomitus]

  On this end Wade, it never happens.

[Natureboy]

  The fouling accumulation is not that great.  When I notice the "full" mark on my hickory stick moving up slightly, I scrape the plug face just in case.  When I upend the gun to pour out the "black sand" which I loosen with the scraper, only a small amount comes out into my hand.  I'm just playing it safe to prevent "cook offs," and making it easier to clean the gun when I get home.

[Jerry V Lape]

RE: any build up of crud on the breech plug face.  I have been using a modified wiping jag which is flat on the end, not cupped to fit around a ball, through which I have cut a groove with a hacksaw.  It seems to clean the surface of the face by making full contact with the moist patch, and if I twist it once in a while the groove seems to help. 

[WadePatton]

As i unnerstand it, you're wiping twice between loadings and then the loading patch wipes, (three wipes per shot) and then you scrape crud after 10 shots as your packin' stick rises from the ever-increasing fouling accumulation.

...

sonofagun. 

I couldn't shoot like that.

have you ever tried shooting with spit patching or water-based lubes? Pretty sure you'll get less fouling with water than with oily lubes. 

[Natureboy]

  I've been wiping once between shots, and then ramming the PRB.  The next time I go to the range, I'll try not wiping, and as long as I don't then have to hammer the ball to get it fully seated, I'll stick with that.  Almost all the patch lubes say that you don't have to wipe between shots, and that seems to be merchandising to me.  I'll also try spit.  There really isn't that much buildup of crud on the breech plug--I'm just playing it safe and I like to clean a bit at the range, and scraping the breech plug is part of that.  Less time cleaning when I get home.  I'll also try spit.  It lubricates other activities, too.  Now we can follow up with jokes about big rocks, big cocks and tight balls.