Buck's County Fowler Any ideas on the maker?

[Tom Currie]

Eric Arnstrong shows a signed J Daub patchbox in his fine KRA artcicle for several years ago and another pic of the cheekside carving. I also hope he will chime in on this thread. That's an interesting smoothbore you've got there. One that EK suggests is sort of between the "schools". 

[Buck]

Dick,
I am not an expert on Bucks Co. rifles but that would be my guess. Mr. Reyder is our resident Bucks Co. collector in the Midwest. He would be the one that I would ask. Again nice find Jim!
Buck

[jdm]

Eric, My mistake . The one signed on the patch box lid is J. Daub.
Tom, I had forgotten about that article. Thanks for jogging my memories .I'm looking for it right now.

Buck , I will contact Al and send him some pictures .He never checks his email any more. To much retirement fun.

Dick, I'm afraid I have a bit of bad news for you. This sweet little Fowler came out of ......................A CALIFORNIA COLLECTION!

[Hemo]

Hello, All,
I don't usually visit this part of the forum, spending most of my time in the Gun Builder's section. I did browse through here yesterday, though, and came across this lovely fowler, which jogged my memory. I'm sure I've had this gun in my hands sometime back around 1980, when it was in the possession of a friend of mine, B. Miles Gilbert (a.k.a. Miles Gilbert, Robert Gilbert, Bob Gilbert, or Bobby), an archaeologist and old gun enthusiast who was living at the time in Laramie, Wyoming, where I saw and handled this gun. I was so taken with this fetching fowler that I made several sketches of it, including the tang carving, and soon after recreated my own fowler based on this original. I modified the butt shape a bit, softening the Roman nose contour some. I also found the original's sideplate to be a little small and strange, and instead made a more Bucks/Lehigh shaped sideplate with an arrow shaped point at the rear. I also cut incised Bucks style fleur-de-lis at the rear of the lock molding instead of the plain beaver tail incised carving on the original.  The tang carving, though, was taken fairly directly from my sketches of the original, as you can see.

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All of this, of course, does not answer your question about the maker of this gun. I don't know if B. Miles Gilbert, if he still walks the earth, would have any more leads. If anyone knows him, or how to get hold of him (I've tried an online search, unsuccessfully), I would appreciate it very much if you could let me know how to contact him!

Best wishes to all!

Gregg Berg

[mark esterly]

rca #103 has variations of that three leaf pattern in the tang carving and both sides of the butt.  I'm not implying a connection, just something to look at.   I am also wondering if the engraving on the bp top would represent an ear of corn. it looks completely different to me than what is on the lock.

[Brookville]

I really can't add much that hasn't been said.  This is not an easy piece to pin down as to maker or "school".  As Ron said there are several areas where this gun could have been made.  Based on the location of the RR pipes do you think the barrel has been cut down to 30"?

I was surprised to see the nice carving around the tang, yet the gun is rather plain otherwise.  Although we try to define a maker and/or "school" based on the architecture and components I believe that some surviving guns were put together with parts on hand.  Is it possible that this gun was made for a youngster using an old stock and miscellaneous parts?  It is built like a fowler in that it has no cheekpiece, or patchbox.  Yet it's fitted with a rear sight.  Length of pull may be a clue there.

[jdm]

Thanks again for all the comments. I've picked up some great information. I knew there were guys on this site who would help. It's nice to share a new find with those who appreciate  it .

Brookville,

I entered the barrel length wrong it's 39 1/2 inches. I still think that is kinda  short however there are no signs where barrel pins  or barrel  lugs have been moved. Length  of pull 13 inches. I was reading  Tom Grinslade book " Flintlock Fowlers" In the chapter on fowlers made by Kentucky rifle makers he talks about a display of fowlers at the k.R.A. in 1996. He states that eighty-five percent of them had a rear site.  This gun is all original . Perhaps made with some imported parts .It would have been nice to see some carving around the rear ramrod pipe but I'm happy with the way it is.

Mark, your right about the bp engraving . It is the same theme  but not the same thing. If that makes  sense.It does look some what like an ear of corn. Just don't start referring to it as the corn gun.


Hemo , Nice build! How soon after seeing this one did you make yours? Thank you for some more of the history on my gun.
It appears this gun, like many others is well traveled. Pennsylvania, Wyoming, California , Ohio and now Missouri.

[mark esterly]

jdm

have you seen this yet in your search?  http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/english-flintlock-fowling-pieces.128105/

[Eric Kettenburg]

Most if not all of the furnishing/lock on this are import parts.  Take a gander through the PA Gazette some time, it's quite eye-opening as to how many store owners were advertising gun mounting, gun locks, gun barrels, rifle barrels, import fowling pieces etc. and were specifically noting it all as "just arrived on the latest ship..." or "best English..." or "best German..." etc.  It was apparently going on very early, definitely pre-F/I era, and it carried on even after the War for some time into the late 18th/early 19th century.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I should also add that there are some advertisements to be found wherein **American** founders are offering gun furnishings for sale, although whether they were copying Euro import designs or selling their own designs, engraved or unengraved etc. remains a fairly obtuse mystery!

[Buck]

Jim,
I read that article also, its in the KRA Articles 1-30. My Fowler / Buck and Ball also has rear sights, I will bring it in February and we can compare.
Buck

[Brookville]

Ron Luckenbill asked me to post these pictures.  

I'll let him post a description of the gun.

[Lucky R A]

     Thanks, Eric for posting the photos, since my technical staff (read children) weren't available.   I realize that the gun posted here is earlier than the one being discussed, but there is a definite similarity in the tang carving design.  When I initially saw the post of the gun under discussion I knew that I had seen a gun with similar tang carving.  The gun in my photos was at Fred Millers many years ago, as Fred was making a copy of the stock profile.   I can't give any information on where the gun was collected but I wouldn't be surprised that it has some distant connection to the gun being discussed.
Ron

[mr. no gold]

Ron, does this gun, you show here, have a patch box? If yes, do you happen to have photos of it that you can post? Also, the tang carving is very much like that on a NE Rev. War gun that I have. Do you think that this gun is American or made in Europe? I have one somewhat similar that I keep hoping that it was made here, but no proof. Are there any barrel marks on this gun? Thank you for showing it to the multitude, by the way. I think that JTR and I just missed talking with you at the KRA last June. Willl try to do better next year.
Dick

[Lucky R A]

Dick, I saw and took some photos of the gun in 2006.  I did not get to made a detailed examination of the gun.  There was no patchbox, the gun was a large cal. smoothbore.  My guess is that it is European and possibly Dutch, but likely saw Rev war service. 

[jdm]

Ron'  I went back to reference the pictures of the gun you posted  but they disappeared . Any chance they'll be back?
I guess I should of made a copy.   Thanks  JIM

[Brookville]

My fault. 
The photos have been restored.

[jdm]

Thank's I'll make a copy.  JIM