which is more desirable C.Baker or Aw Spies ?

[caliber]

I apologize for the picture quality this camera hates me and tries to work against me when ever possible Im new to black powder rifles and  have a chance to purchase one of these Rifles but would like your thoughts are which is the more desirable the first is a long rifle with C.Baker on the lock with a hunting scene the bore is very lighly surfaced rusted but Im confident it will be clean up to be in  excellent condition also it has double triggers however the only C.Baker I can find listed was too early to make this rifle but is there a possibility that it has been converted to percussion
Click on pictures to Enlarge

[caliber]

The second rifle has an excellent bore with double triggers but is a lot shorter than the C.Baker it is marked on the lock AW.Spies with a hunting scene because of my poor pictures Ive included pictures off the net of a very similar spies Rifle





Both guns have a hexagonal barrels which are very thick and locks are in working order im not worried about the prices which are about the same but more concerned with which is the more desirable as the conditions are similar

[Avlrc]

Caliber, you should look on the top of the octagon barrel between the rear sight and the breech for a signature. The name on the locks are the name of the lock maker, most likely not the man who made these rifles. You may need to look with a magnifier.
 
Of the two rifles, I would probably choose the one with the patchbox.(c.baker).
 A fullstock seems to be more desirable than  most halfstocks.  However the other one is pretty neat with the tang sight.

[E.vonAschwege]

Avlrc is right that the fullstock may be more desirable, but ultimately you shouldn't necessarily buy what's most "valuable", buy what you like.  If the Spies gun is as nice as the one in the second photo with the tang sight, I'd buy that one.  I know "buy what you like, not what you think is valuable"  is the cheesy phrase they use all the time with the Antiques Roadshow, but a lot of it holds true.  Neither of those guns are very valuable the way some original guns are, but each has its own interesting features that make it collectable.  Buy whichever one you will appreciate more on your wall. 

-Eric


PS - if you're starting down the road of collecting and selling, only once you get good at identifying what's valuable would I say "buy what's valuable, sell it for more, then buy what you actually want". 

[galamb]

There are quite a number of rifles, particularly from the New England states (ca. 1850's) with C. Baker locks on them.

Although I never fully tracked down exactly who C. Baker was, most of the notes I saw indicated that was simply the "supplier" of the locks.

I have read different accounts of Baker being the lock maker, but most suggest these were imported locks (probably English) that sold in your corner hardware store.

So much the same way that Leman or Goulcher locks show up on builds from dozens if not hundreds of builders.

[caliber]

Thanks for the replies Im I having trouble trying to decide between the two so I looking for a way to give one an advantage over the other  both are appealing to me so I thought mybe go with the more desirable rifle or maybe I might give into temptation and buy both as  early American flintlock/percussion long rifles arnt that common here
The spies doesnt have the sight in the picture that Im aware of

[Shreckmeister]

The Baker rifle looks like Pennsylvania and the Spies looks like NY if that means anything to you.

[Bob Roller]

A.W.Spies,general gunsmith and dealer ay Broadway&Fulton Street in New York City from 1832 to 1860.
Became Spies,Kissan&Co. from 1860 to 1876.
Source is A.Merwyn Carey's book on American Gun Makers on page 116.
I once owned a nice Spies half stock caplock that was a fine shooter.Got it from E.M.Farris,one of the founders
of the NMLRA.

Bob Roller

[caliber]

The Baker rifle looks like Pennsylvania and the Spies looks like NY if that means anything to you.

Can you clarify the difference between a kentucky rifle and a Pennsylvania rifle ? I often seen the names interchanged and what is a New York rifle ? Also I was told the Baker rifle was made in Boston but I not sure where the seller got the information  from

[caliber]

A.W.Spies,general gunsmith and dealer ay Broadway&Fulton Street in New York City from 1832 to 1860.
Became Spies,Kissan&Co. from 1860 to 1876.
Source is A.Merwyn Carey's book on American Gun Makers on page 116.
I once owned a nice Spies half stock caplock that was a fine shooter.Got it from E.M.Farris,one of the founders
of the NMLRA.

Bob Roller

Thanks for the information that narrows a date down on  the spies so it wouldn't look out of place next to my 1879 Damascus double barrel 13 gauge William Powell & son

[JV Puleo]

Carey is pretty much a hopelessly out of date source. Adam W Spies was an importer of fancy military goods, mostly gilt buttons and lace. He set up in New York in 1827 and eventually expanded into sporting goods... but everything was made in Birmingham which is, if I remember correctly, where he came from. He certainly was not a gunsmith. I'd say that was a generic, inexpensive NY rifle with a Birmingham-made imported by AW Spies & Co.

[Shreckmeister]

The style is called a Kentucky rifle, some get offended by calling them this because they originated in Pennsylvania.  They are one in the same.  PA/KY rifles were made in many eastern/Midwest states.  I was stating that I thought yours was made in PA because I have seen that patchbox on rifles from PA.
I would choose the PA rifle as I think the maker can be identified and it's a fullstock