Grenadier of Virginia sword

[mstriebel]

Hello All,

I know this is probably not the exactly right place to post this question, so my apologies.  However, I know the experts on this forum have a broader and deeper knowledge about all areas of 18th century weapons than anywhere else, so I thought I would start here first.

I have been searching for years for some tangible artifact related the George Rogers Clark's Illinois Regiment of Virginia in which a great grand father of mine served.  I finally came across a Grenadier of Virginia sword that I have an opportunity to purchase, which seems to fit the bill.  The size and shape is right for the sword and it came from an area of Kentucky near were a number of Clark's men were given land after the Revolutionary War.  It has the French Klingenthal maker's mark faintly visible.  However, the hilt is bent and the great majority of the engraving, including the "Grenadiers of Virginia" and "Victory or Death" markings are gone.

I know I many not have an opportunity come across an item like this again, so my inclination is to proceed with purchase.  However, the cost is more than anything I have ever paid for an item, and large enough the misses would file for divorce if she found out.  I just want to make sure that if I do go forward with purchase that I am not being foolish and letting my emotions get the better of me.  In other words, I just want to make sure at a price at which my boys would reasonably be able to expect be able to get back what I put into it .

Do any of you have any thoughts as what a reasonable price range would be or a source where I could find such an estimate for a sword in this condition?

Thanks for any advice you can provide.

[Shreckmeister]

That's a very interesting sword and if the form fits and it's from the right area like you said, I would go out on a limb to acquire it.  I am confused though.  Your great grandfather served in the rev war or did you leave a few greats out of that statement?

[jdm]

Let me start  by saying I know absolutely nothing about  the sword your looking at. In

 my limited experience  with early American swords ( mostly Rev war period)I've found some similarity's with the longrifle. A great number were individually  made  not mass produced in a shop. The prices like Kentucky's are all over the board. Based on maker  artistic merit , history, size ( horseman saber , short sword  etc. ). I have handled and sold maybe twentyfive or so in the last ten or twelve years. Prices ranged from under a thousand  up into the five figures. Most were in the two to three thousand range. I depend on a lot of help from others to to come up with what we felt were fare values.
You are correct certain things may only come along once in a lifetime. Sometimes you can make an offer. Come up with a figure in your mind what it's worth to you. Then what ever happens happens. Sorry I know it's not much help. Good Luck.

[mstriebel]

Shreckmeister and Jim,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.   The ancestor is my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather.  I just felt that after a couple of greats, things get a bit redundant, so I usually just use the term grandfather.  However, I saw your designation for Johan Schrecengost of GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost, which is an efficient way of stating matters that I will plagiarize for future use.  I appreciate your words of wisdom as to how to approach what for me is big acquisitions.   

Jim, I think your advice is very helpful and provides some much needed perspective for me to approach matters.  The seller seems to sense that I want the piece badly and is pricing it to squeeze the last nickel out.  As near as I can tell the price is about the uppermost limit of what would be considered fair value. 

The history on this item is great and that is what draws me to it, as is the case with most of the other items I have purchased in the past.  However, the condition is less than stellar.  Do you find that on weapons from this era that that are of historical significance but mediocre condition will hold their value as well as price is about to those items of good to excellent quality?

Thanks

[Luke MacGillie]

Virginia Grenadier swords were not made one a time, they were mass produced in a French factory to a standard pattern, then given special markings relating to Virginia. 

I am always the septic, and the fact that this came from a picker with the story of it having been purchased in the Louisville area casts just enough of a doubt that I would need serious proof.   Otherwise this is just a 67 pattern sword that has been artificially made to look like it was a very rare sword. 

Just my 2 cents......

[mstriebel]

Luke,

Thanks for your input.  I think before any major decision like this a healthy amount of skepticism is a good thing.  I agree that without solid documentation, any claim as to the origins of an item need to be taken with a grain of salt.

What is leading to my belief that this is a Grenadier of Virginia sword is the following:

1) Please see the attached section from Troiani's "Soldiers in America" where he discussed the Grenadier of Virginia / Artillery of Virginia / Dragoon of Virginia swords.  Troiani says that, “The grenadier saber had a rather unique, wide upper blade section with false edge, running approximately eight inches to the tip.”

2) The second attached image shows a confirmed Grenadier of Virginia sword that was sold at auction at James D. Julia in 2005.  This sword shows the distinctive false edge running about eight inches to the tip.

3) The final image shows a confirmed French Model 1767 sword.  This standard model of that sword lacks the false edge.

If it was not for the false edge detail, I would not consider purchase.  Now I know that there are some ingenious people out there that could find a way to fake about anything with enough time.  However, with my limited knowledge of working in metals, I could not see how a standard Mode 1767 sword could be manipulated to achieve the distinctive Grenadier of Virginia appearance without destroying the patina of the metal and leaving obvious evidence of significant rework.

The last thing I want to do is make my biggest purchase be my dumbest, so if anybody sees some flaws in my thinking or has any other suggestions, I am all ears.

Thanks








picture sharing

[Shreckmeister]

Mr. Striebel,
     I want to retract what I said about going out on a limb to buy the sword earlier.
     I thought I would share my experience with purchasing family rifles in hopes that it could save you some financial discomfort.  You are absolutely right in that you do not want to have regrets after the purchase nor do you want to do something that affects your family in a negative way.
     It's very exciting to obtain a piece of history relating to your gggggg grandfather, but keep in mind that it only relates to him, it was not his.  You could pay homage to him in other ways by creating a display of documents or period items that are much less costly than the sword.  I would not make the purchase based solely on what you have read and photographs from books.  There are experts in this field and I would seek their judgment and have the sword physically observed by one of them.  If it is the real deal, the seller should be agreeable.  The patina on a sword CAN be recreated.
      I am curious if the price of this sword was established before or after the seller became aware of your interest?  The region a sword came from should not in my opinion give it strong enough provenance and could be an outright lie.  Consider only the physical qualities of the sword and if anything is wrong walk away.
     I wish you the best in your pursuit and will be curiously waiting to hear the outcome.

[T.C.Albert]

So all the markings are gone? Were they worn off ? From extreme use?
But the blade seems to show little use?
How many Grenadiers did Clark take to Illinois?
tc

[Luke MacGillie]

Take a look at the "Italian" model Briquets, there is one on eBay right now. One of those could be artifaked and turn a 600 dollar sword into something else. They have that false edge as well.

[Shreckmeister]

RARE FRENCH 1767 PATTERN GRENADIERS SWORD OF THE NAPOLEONIC ITALIAN REPUBLIC
 $850.00
 Buy It Now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-FRENCH-1767-PATTERN-GRENADIERS-SWORD-OF-THE-NAPOLEONIC-ITALIAN-REPUBLIC-/381087442235?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58ba94e53b

Looks like a very similar sword.

[VALongrifle]

Besides many very knowledgeable folks around, why not contact Don Troiani himself?  He s very active on a number of Rev War collector forums and very easy to talk to.  He is extremely knowledgeable and has studied extensively.

I've been in your shoes, and without more proof, I would not make the purchase.  Have an independent authority verify the sword first...some one who knows swords.

Semper Fidelis
Pat

[mstriebel]

Many thanks to everyone on the forum for their advice.

Although I was not able to get an expert to review the sword in person, I was able to have an appraiser look at the photos of the item to offer his opinion.  

The appraiser estimated the value at a fraction of what the seller was asking for the sword and said the following:

i] "Although the photos make it appear reasonable that this may be authentic, the condition is very poor.[/i]  I am responding with a viewpoint of someone with no attachment to this piece, so please take it as such. I know that you may have an emotional attachment to this type of items, but I would caution you.

Unless you really have to have this, I would make him a reasonable offer and leave it at that. As for locating items of interest for you: I would recommend setting up accounts with proxibid, liveauctioneers and invaluable. Once done, set up alerts for the items you are interested in. Then, you will receive notice when an auction gallery posts an item matching your alert. I would be patient. Things are always coming to market."[/
[/i]
Based on that advice and that of the members of the forum, I decided to pass on this item.  To Mr. Albert's question, as near as I can tell from reviewing the papers of Clark's regiment they were issued at the most 100 to 150 swords because that is the total number of swords being issued to soldiers.  Of course, many of those swords issued could have been returned to inventory after expeditions and the reissued, so the total number of Grenadier of Virgina swords in the unit could be considerably less. 

It is frustrating to finally come across something that I believe is most likely the item I have been seeking for so long and not to make the purchase.  However, while I think the odds are the item is genuine, it's certainly not a sure thing.  With the appraiser providing an estimate for a sword in this condition at far below the asking price, it's just not the smart move to chance it at the price being asked.

Thanks to all the folks on the forum for talking me off the ledge before I made what probably would have been a foolish decision.  Having only been collecting for a few years, that is the biggest thing I have had to learn -- to have the patience to wait for the right item at the right price instead of just jumping on the opportunity that is dangling right in front of me.